First Draft Episode #306: Nicola Yoon
May 27, 2021
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Nicola Yoon, #1 New York Times bestselling author of Everything, Everything and The Sun Is Also a Star talks about her new YA, Instructions For Dancing and her brand new publishing venture: co-publisher of Joy Revolution, a Random House young adult imprint dedicated to love stories starring people of color.
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Welcome to First Draft with me, Sarah Enni. This week I'm talking to Nicola Yoon, number one New York Times bestselling author of Everything, Everything, and The Sun is Also a Star about her new YA, Instructions For Dancing.
We also talk about her brand new publishing venture. She is co-publisher along with her husband, author David Yoon, of Joy Revolution a Random House, young adult imprint, dedicated to love stories, starring people of color.
I so loved what Nicola had to say about the real life happening behind the social media feed, on letting go of a book that just wasn't working, on finding a sideways way to write about loving, despite knowing it will cause us pain. And on her day-to-day life as an author and co-publisher.
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Okay. Now please sit back, relax and enjoy my conversation with Nicola Yoon.
Sarah Enni: Hi Nicola, how are you today?
Nicola Yoon: I'm okay. How are you doing?
Sarah Enni: I'm doing well. And it's so nice to see you. I have so many questions about your new book Instructions For Dancing, but I want to first let all of our listeners know that you and I have chatted before, and I'm gonna link to our conversation in the show notes of this episode. And in that episode, we talked all about your childhood, and your young reading life, and how you came to creative writing. And also a lot about how you met your husband, and how you guys are writers together, and a lot of wonderful stuff like that. So everybody who missed that should go check it out.
Today we're gonna be talking about all the things that have happened since then, which for you, is so much...like a lot.
Nicola Yoon: It's been an eventful, how many years has it been? Since 2015?
Sarah Enni: Yeah, like five years. You have a lot of interviews where you talked about all the movies and all the exciting stuff like that. I really want to focus on how you were trying to keep your writing life going while all of that madness was happening around you.
And the way of asking that is cause I understand that you had a book you wrote after The Sun is Also a Star that ended up not working, and not going anywhere. So I'd love to hear about what writing was like at that time, and what was this project?
Nicola Yoon: I love this question because so many times I get the questions about how exciting the movies were, and they were, so I'm not gonna pretend that that's not true. But there is also a writing life that's happening, and a life that's happening, right?
So when Everything, Everything came out, my mom was actually really very sick. And the day of the movie premiere was like the first night my mom was in the hospital. So a friend of mine was actually at the premiere with me and zoomed - not zoom, it was FaceTime at the time - FaceTimed from the red carpet so she could see, cause she would ordinarily have been there with us.
And that was the beginning of this insanely long journey of my mom being ill. And so no one knows that, right? My very close friends all knew what was happening, but that's not sort of what's in the world. And I'm fairly private anyway so it's not something that I would have talked about, certainly not while it was happening.
And so it's one of those things where it looks so glamorous. And I look at my social media, I'm like, "Oh, that seems really cool." But also I know what was happening like, for real. I know what's happening behind my smile in those pictures. And so that went on for a really long time.
So we come to talk about the book, that went on through The Sun is Also a Star. She got really sick, got better, and then got really, really sick sort of through The Sun is Also a Star, and she was able to come to that premiere. But in between there, I was writing another book and it was not a good book, Sarah. I'm not gonna lie.
[Both laughing].
Nicola Yoon: I tried, I revised it and I revised it, and I did it a million times and it just never got to that place where... I mean, I feel like it was a competent book, but it wasn't magical. Which is not to say that I feel like any of the books are magical, but I like them. So it never got to the place where I felt like, "Okay, I can sort of let this go." And my editor agreed. So we let it go.
But it was really painful because I spent a long time on it. And the problem with the book, I think right now, several years later, is that it's just a sad book, right? Like I was grieving, my father-in-law got sick, a terminal illness, he was with us for another year. And then he died while I was writing that book. And my mom was really sick and we weren't sure if she was gonna make it. And so there's just so much grief in the book and I couldn't see my way through it. I just couldn't write my way through it.
So it just feels like a book that's one note, it's just very heavy. So I think that's what happened. And it's something I like to talk about when people ask, not the illness, but just the fact that you can be successful and also still fail, right? You can have a thing that does not work, for whatever reason, life happens no matter what. The writing has to go on, the life goes on, no matter what. And so it can fail. And so then now it's been like four-and-a-half years in between books. And you know, now I have this new one and I'm completely anxious about it.
Sarah Enni: And you had a wonderful quote about that, about the fact that it was a grief-ridden book., The quote here, to quote you to you, but, "It was a very, very, very sad book where I was deep in my emotions and I could not see my way through to a story. It was mostly one emotion and that emotion was grief."
And I thought that was a really knowing and comprehensive way to think about your own book. You know, your books are not straightforward, 100% happily-ever-after books. Your books do deal with real issues and conflict. But the connective tissue between all of them has been this worldview based on hope. So it did kind of strike me that if you were at a point where that was hard for you to see, that it would be hard to build a story based on that.
Because real life and books aren't the same at all, right? You have to have an arc and a journey, sort of in the Western tradition of writing things, there has to be some sort of change. And I promise you, this book is just an extended yowl, it's just sadness. And I couldn't see it, but my editor did. I just couldn't see how she wasn't changing. There was no journey for her.
And I was just too much in my grief to be able to say anything. And for me, the books have to say something. It's still hard to talk about Where to Live because I put so much into it and I don't know if it will ever work. I don't think so.
Sarah Enni: Do you feel like writing that book gave you a place to work through things? Do you think that you were untying knots in yourself. It just happened, so I feel like it can be hard to feel too, but was it a therapeutic at all?
Nicola Yoon: I don't know. I mean, therapy was therapeutic. I got my butt into therapy because, wow, did I need it. But I don't know if I could have written Instructions without writing the terrible one, you know? So, unfortunately, I hate saying that because it was so painful, and so painful to set it aside, but also I think it was necessary.
You know how people always say, "Well, you don't meet the love of your life, or whoever you're supposed to be with, without going through like the bad boyfriend, girlfriend, whoever." And I always hate that like, "You don't have to go through the bad thing to end up with the good thing." [Sighs] But in this case, I kind of feel like maybe I did.
Sarah Enni: I want to ask, if you don't mind sharing whatever you feel comfortable sharing, about the publishing professional side of that. It sounds like you were working with your editor and they were able to say like, "This is not going..." What were those conversations like? How did the team come to an understanding that this wasn't gonna be it? And how did you then try to move on from that?
Nicola Yoon: I will say, I do have just a very good, fantastic team. So I wrote this thing that I wasn't happy with, and I revised, and revised. My self-confidence just kept dropping. I mean, it takes me 4,000 revisions anyway, but this was a lot. And I can tell when it's getting better, and it wasn't, it was just sort of flat.
But I will say the best thing my team did for me is that they just believed in me, like they really did. They just did not give up. I wrote this in my acknowledgements, I gave up on myself and they were just like, "Nope, you can do it, take a break, take as much time as you want." And it's not ideal to have this huge space between books. But I think everyone wanted me to feel good about a book, and they wanted to feel good about it. And they were just like, "Okay, just take the time."
Because honestly, if they had said that last book was fine, I would have been like, "Yeah, let's get it out." And I'm glad they were like, "Are you sure?" And then I was like, "No, you're right." But I didn't want to, I wanted to let it go. And so, as much as people are looking for people to say yes, which clearly you are, sometimes it's better if they say no. Or if they say, "Let's just take a pause here and think about it." And they're like, "There is no rush. You can just revise this, or do something else. We'll wait for you." And that was great.
Sarah Enni: That's so nice to hear, and I think this is true more often than it isn't, but that people in publishing are invested in an author, and growing an author, and staying with an author, and having something that everybody believes in, is still the core of what we do, you know? It's a bunch of people that want to enable art.
Nicola Yoon: I always tell new authors too, you just don't want someone who's invested in just the book, like one book. You really do need it to be the whole career, and the person, because it's gonna be up and down. Even your most favorite writers have a book that you don't think is as good, or you don't like as much, it doesn't sell as well. And so you really do want people behind you who believe in you and what you're trying to do in the world.
Sarah Enni: Well, I want to ask about what happened, and how we got to Instructions For Dancing, but I do want to first bring up the other thing that happened in the interim of your books, is that your husband, fellow novelists David Yoon, he had in 2019, Frankly in Love, his debut, came out. And then Super Fake Love Song came out in 2020, his follow-up to that. And he has an adult book that's right on the horizon, Version Zero, coming out soon. So he's been pretty prolific.
Nicola Yoon: The boy writes so fast it's obnoxious. I'm not gonna lie, it's obnoxious.
Sarah Enni: See, well, this is what I was gonna ask. Being a writer is a really emotional roller coaster and you guys are on there for each other, but having it be in the same house, and going through different deadlines, and timings, and everything. I just would love to hear how, or have you, found a rhythm or a pattern to kind of separate art from home life, or how to keep steady when all of the publishing wackiness is going on?
Nicola Yoon: The way we know each other is from writing, right? So we met in graduate school, we were in our first workshop together. So talking about stories and ideas, and reading each other's work, has always been part of our relationship. I fell in love with him, partly, because I loved his writing. So we don't know each other another way.
We're creative together as a couple, but being professional writers is different, right? Because it is up and down, and publishing is a roller coaster, and there are days when I'm just like, "Honey, it's fine. We're gonna be fine." And there are days where he does that for me, and not just for the publishing but for the writing too, because writing just sucks, sometimes. There are days where you're just like, "Why am I doing this?" And so the days when I'm like that, he's there to hold me up, and I do it for him.
He has fewer of those days, to be clear, because he is way stronger than I am. So it's not hard because it's the way we know each other. I don't find it emotionally difficult because that is how we are connected, or one of the first ways we connected. He's my first reader, he's the person whose opinion I care about most. I really think he's a terrific writer.
I mean, I know I'm in love with him, but I also really like his writing. When I read his stuff, I go, "God, I gotta step it up. I gotta get better." So I'll say it's fairly seamless, what's hard is publishing is hard, it's a risky business. And we have a child, and we're trying to make the world safe and stable financially for her. And so if we get stressed, it's stuff like that.
Sarah Enni: The business side of things is hard. And again, this is what I think of when I was trying to put myself in that position. It would be an interesting place to be in to making financial decisions for your family that also were tied up in art, and feelings, and things like that. It's hard for even one person, and then when you have two, that would just be a whole different kind of conversation to have at breakfast.
Nicola Yoon: Right, I'm quite risk averse. I used to work in finance. And so for me, it's just like, "Let's just put all the money over here and never touch it just in case no one buys our books anymore." [Laughs] And that's really how I think.
I'm aware that sometimes people like your books and sometimes they don't, right? And Penny still has to go to college, and I need to leave her a nest egg, and all that stuff. So that stuff is the part where people who have had very stable jobs before, well-paying stable ones, and now we're in this creative career, we're like, "What are we doing? Explain."
Sarah Enni: I appreciate you speaking to that and also, listeners should know that I was able to speak with David too, before Frankly in Love came out. So they can go listen to his episode as well.
The other thing that happened in the interim, and then I swear, we're gonna ask all about Instructions For Dancing, is that you got a new agent, or you are working with Jodi Reamer. I'm always interested in people doing that on that side of the professional world, finding somebody new to come in and help you navigate things.
And when we talk about Joy Revolution in a minute, I think she was integral in helping you guys set that up, so what's it been like to work with Jodi? And what's it been like to have that new relationship to encourage you at this stage in your career?
Nicola Yoon: So I met Jodi, weirdly, in England a few years ago, and I'm not gonna remember when. And I think I was there for the Waterstone's Book Prize, which I did not win [laughs], but I was in England. And where were we? Oh, I know, we were at the Random House UK office and they were throwing a little event and Jodi was there. And they had these cupcakes, these book cupcakes with a little cookie on top of the cupcake.
And anyway, Penny and David, were at the hotel while I was at this event. And I just was sort of sitting there and I was like, "Oh, it would be so great to take some of these home." And Jodi was there and she overheard me, and she just sort of disappeared and came back with this big, beautiful box, all fixed up, with cupcakes in there already. And I was like, "Wait, who are you? Why? What's happening?"
And it was just so nice. And I always thought at the point at which I want someone to help me navigate the industry, or the world, and maybe expand into other things that I've been thinking about, I was gonna keep her in mind.
And then I went out to dinner with Adam Silvera (#1 New York Times bestselling author of Infinity Reaper, Infinity Son, They Both Die at the End, More Happy Than Not, History Is All You Left Me, and What If It's Us with Becky Albertalli (hear her First Draft interviews here and here), and Tahereh Mafi (New York Times bestselling and National Book Award nominated author of the Shatter Me YA fantasy series, YA contemps An Emotion of Great Delight and A Very Large Expanse of Sea, middle grade books Furthermore and Whichwood. Hear her First Draft interviews here and here), and Ransom Riggs, and David was there too. And we were talking and I was like, "How do you feel about Jodi? And I remember Tahereh leaned in and she said, "Well, let me tell you." And she just glowed. And I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna call her." She was like, "Do you want me to introduce you?" I was like, "Yes."
So then we went out to dinner, or lunch, that was supposed to be an hour and it was like five. And she just really sort of got Dave and I and what we wanted to do. Because we have this vision for what kind of books we want in the world, not just ours, but for other people. And she just really got it. And we were at the point where we needed someone to sort of help us manage it like a career, long-term, and not just sort of book-to-book. Cause I don't know what I'm doing, but she does.
Sarah Enni: Or at least a sounding board like, "Does this make sense?"
Nicola Yoon: You don't even know all the things you don't know. She will just say things like, "Well, you can just wait on that and do it this way instead." And I would never think of that. She's ridiculous, I mean, she's amazing. She knows everything, she knows everyone, and she's very calming too. She's just like, "Calm down child." Because I'm a worrier, especially. David is much calmer than I am, but I worry about everything, and she's good for that.
Sarah Enni: That's one of the most common things, I think, that people who are in great agenting relationships say is, "This person helps me be less anxious. They tell me what to worry about and what to just leave behind."
Nicola Yoon: Yeah, just let go, huge.
Sarah Enni: Excellent, I love that. Let's get to Instructions For Dancing. When you're at this point of a book that is just not working, and everybody kind of agrees, "You need to move past it," how did Instructions come along at that point? Or was that already a nugget in your mind? Or how did it come to be?
Nicola Yoon: So at the end of the - I don't even know what I called the other book now - at the end of that process, I knew what I wanted to talk about. By the end of that book, I knew that I wanted to write about grief, and not just grief but the decision to love people, even though we know crappy things are gonna happen to them, possibly.
We all, as humans, live with this, right? We live with the fact that we are going to die. Like how do we not go completely off the rails knowing this, having this knowledge, and living with this every day? I don't know we just trick ourselves, honestly, into thinking that we live forever, but we don't.
And so I already knew that this is the theme that I was going to... I just needed a way to make it happy to you, you know? And not just like a single note. And so it just sort of came out of there, it came out of the same emotion, it came out of the same question which is, why do we love people knowing that love hurts sometimes, and a lot? Watching my mother-in-law watch her husband of 30 something years die, I was just like, "Why do we do this to ourselves?"
Sarah Enni: It's intense, but it's beautiful if you can find the way to a hopeful story with it. Because you're right, we do get up and move through the world every day, even though we have this knowledge that it's hard to look right at, you know?
Nicola Yoon: I love the way you said that, though. Like it's hard to look right at it. It is a glancing way of looking at it. We do have to fool ourselves.
Sarah Enni: Oh yeah. Yeah. It's like close-up magic on this huge scale, all the time.
I have so many wonderful questions because you just touched on like, it's such a beautiful book and it grapples with all of these things so well, but do you mind, before I ask these questions, pitching Instructions For Dancing for us?
Nicola Yoon: I've only pitched it a few times, so forgive me if I do it poorly. So Instructions For Dancing is about a girl named Evie who is having a hard time with life. Her parents have gotten divorced and she loved her parents and loved their relationship. And she's sort of cynical now, she used to be a big romantic, now she's very cynical. And one day she develops a mysterious power where she sees the entirety of people's relationships.
So she sees a couple kiss, she'll see their beginning, like all the key moments in their relationship, and then how their relationship ends. And the thing she takes away from this is, that all relationships end, and therefore are terrible. And why would I get into one? But then, of course, because this is a book, into that mix has to come Xavier, or X, and he says this hot rock star and he is kind of the opposite of her. And he challenges her notion of what it means to love. And why you do it in the first place.
Sarah Enni: That was well done, you did great. This is some of my favorite type of contemporary stories are ones that bring in this speculative element. I saw some people describe it as magical realism, and it's not really that.
Nicola Yoon: No, it's not.
Sarah Enni: It's just contemp with a speculative twist, which is so fun. Can you talk about what made you inspired to do that? It's kind of like a spell that gets cast on her almost.
Nicola Yoon: I could not think of a way to talk about the things I wanted to talk about, and make it fun, without doing something like this. Do you know what I mean? It's like what you said, I really do come at things sideways. I just had all this stuff in my head. Do you remember the movie Big? Evie talks about it in the book and I love those speculative things where it's like, the world is the same, one little thing changes.
It's basically taking a philosophical question and sort of pushing it to the limit. I mean, it's what the best sci-fi does. It takes this one thing, and it sort of shapes the world around it, and then forces the reader to contend with the question it's asking.
I love that stuff anyway, I love fantasy, and this is not fantasy. But I do like that little bit of magic in there that makes you really ask the question, "What's love worth?" Cause if you're gonna see the beginning, and the middle, and the end, you're gonna ask that question.
Sarah Enni: So you already mentioned that your mom was sick and that that was part of what brought you into this. Knowing that going too deep was not working in the other book, how did you keep it present in this book, but monitor the tone, you know what I mean? This is almost like a revision question, really, about how you made sure Evie was a fully rounded person who was going to deal with the heart of what you were dealing with, but also keep up a level of fun-ness for the reader?
Nicola Yoon: This is where having a good editor is the best thing on earth. Because the first version of this book, pretty sad, pretty one note and sad. And my editor is smarter than I am, she just is. She's like, "I know you want to say this, but also don't you want to say this?" She's like, "You're fundamentally a happy person going through a sad thing, Nikki."
So, the fact that she knows me, the fact that she knows what I'm actually trying to say in the world, helps. I revised this book a lot, and she helped. She said, "It's too sad right now, and revise." [Chuckles] And I said, "Well, I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to." And then I said, "Oh, you're right." And then I did, which is standard [laughs].
Sarah Enni: I could definitely relate to that, and you're right that therapy is therapy. And I never want to act like writing a book replaces therapy, because it doesn't. But that seems like a therapeutic exercise for her having you take another pass, and generate the positive side within. Do you know what I mean?
Nicola Yoon: Yeah.
Sarah Enni: It's just kind of asking you like, "Find the positive here." I can just feel that that might be a really brain-shifting way of looking at it.
Nicola Yoon: What's so lovely, at this stage our relationship, is she knows me so well. We've been through four books now, one failed, together. And so she knows, also, that I'm a fundamentally optimistic person who's in love with love. I think that's part of the editorial relationship is how much someone knows you.
And then it's also just time. I want to say, it took a lot. It took a couple of years to get through to the end of this book. And sometimes I'd just put it away. And then when I went back to it, I could see that the arc wasn't there, or that the joy and levity of it wasn't there. So by the time I got to the end, I had all that stuff in, and then it was just sort of the balance between making sure I'm saying the serious part that I wanted to say, and also writing an actual teenager who smiles through sad things.
Sarah Enni: I really appreciate you speaking so much to this side of the story, cause it is also a book that is lovely and funny, and there's a lot of jokes, and a lot of different characters, and characters who are just really fun together. But you talking so openly about how this book was you dealing with very sad things in your life, did also make me look back at Everything, Everything, and The Sun is Also a Star, in an interesting way too, because those are also really about a lot of tough topics.
And it's broader than just like, "Should we stay together when we're going to different colleges?" That's not ever just what you're dealing with, you know? So it almost makes sense for the Nicola Yoon arc, those books get cast as like pure romance, but of course, under the surface, there's a lot more than that. So this is a little bit more of you getting the opportunity to be like, "Hey, we're really dealing with a lot here."
Nicola Yoon: Right, I think, honestly, all my books start out sadder and then they end up. Cause it's usually from a question, it really is from something that's bugging me. And I'm kind of a serious person, and then I have to go back. Cause I write the thing I want to talk about in it's almost purest, most philosophical way of thinking about it, and then I have to go back and put the story in, and then actually make it like real life, and not just me going wrestling with something that's really bugging me. So they actually always start out sadder than they end up.
Sarah Enni: That is so interesting, but I really love that that's how you start, cause I relate to that. I think that for me a question or something... in Tell Me Everything, it's about social media and just being scared of it and not knowing how to reckon with it, even though it's still a part of our life. And so I think you could tell when you read that book, it's about a lot of other things, but I'm dealing with that.
And so I think having a question, or a concern, drive a book is more satisfying for me as a reader cause I can tell that someone's really trying to have a conversation about something.
Nicola Yoon: Yeah, me too! There's this sort of genre of movies and books where you just sort of hangout, and I think they're lovely, for other people. I absolutely need for there to be a 'thing', like a big question. Like I really need it, and I don't know why, it's just how I'm made.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, I agree. And I could see Instructions For Dancing being a book that lives in concert with a lot of other great works that deal with these kind of things. It's like a Before Sunset type of thing, you know what I mean? Or Before Sunrise, I always mess that up.
Nicola Yoon: I love those movies, all of them, so much. Well, the last one, eh, but the first two [chuckles].
Sarah Enni: I love the idea too, of thinking, "I'm dealing with this question. I don't have all the answers, but there's so many things that it could be in conversation with, to help every complicated individual person who's reading this book, come to their own conclusions, or think about it in their own way." I love that.
So Instructions For Dancing does one of my favorite things, which is the book itself is named after a fake book that's inside the book. So Evie gets gifted the book, it's tied into how she has this - I was about to call it a curse, it's not really a curse - it's kind of a magical thing.
Nicola Yoon: Her super magical vision.
Sarah Enni: And that leads her to Xavier and this dancing studio, which is so fun and opens up this whole other world of fun characters. I want to ask about writing, dancing. Do you dance? Do you know all these moves? Did you have to look up the instructions?
Nicola Yoon: Yes, I'm actually a secret ballroom dancing expert.
Sarah Enni: Listeners, she's flamenco dancing right now!
[Both laughing]
Nicola Yoon: No, I don't know anything. I mean, so David and I took ballroom lessons before we got married. And we took them once after we moved to California. And then we took them again when I was writing this book, so like private lessons, which were really fun. So in the before time, we used to have once-a-week date nights, and so for a while, when I was writing this, we would do our date night at our ballroom dance lesson.
So it was really a lot of fun just dancing together. And we did the private lessons so that I could learn it fast and also ask a billion questions and not monopolized a group class. And the instructors are all great. Actually, the studio is based on a studio that's in LA. We had such a good time. So we did the Bachata and we did the Tango. And then I watched many, many competitions for the stuff in the book.
Sarah Enni: Ah! I love the things that our research leads us to do, it's so fun.
Nicola Yoon: It was great! And there's a cafe in the book, also, that's based on a cafe that's literally a block from me.
Sarah Enni: Well, I did love that it was an LA book, that was so wonderful for you to be able to be specific about it. And every time a person that lives in LA writes an LA book, or whenever someone writes about their own hometown, there's so many little like, "Ooh, I get to like mention this thing that bugs me about this place, or whatever." Or, "This is one thing I really want to highlight." So it's so fun to read for that too.
And also X is a musician, and music is hard to write about, and dancing is a physical thing, it's kind of like writing a fight scene. It's just a lot of logistics, almost. So, how did you get into that and how did you like make it all feel effortless to read? Cause it did, in my opinion.
Nicola Yoon: Thank you. I literally would stand up at my desk, though, and do the steps. So that's why I took the class cause I was like, "I need to just know what it feels like in your body." You don't need to be an expert, but I just needed to know a little bit of what it feels like in my body to do it, so that I could have Evie do it. And then I would sometimes go like, "Honey, come over here." Cause I got to figure out where the hand goes and how it would feel, especially when they're partner dancing. Some of the dances are sort of more intimate and sexy than others, so how would she feel if she was doing this with a cute boy.
And then for writing music, I love music. I am a rock-and-roll, grunge music kind of girl. And all the angst, there's not enough angst in the world for me. And so getting to write sort of, he's not broody at all, but his songs are sort of hard-driving. And that was really fun for me. David actually recorded the song that's in the book. I'm not sure if he's gonna let me put it out in the world, but he recorded the drums and the guitar, cause he plays everything, and then put them together. It's great, but I have to talk him into it.
Sarah Enni: I love that! [Laughs] I loved that Evie and Xavier, or X, as he goes by, are so philosophically at odds, right? She's very cautious, she's done with love, she's young and jaded. And X is very exuberant and ready to sort of say 'yes', that's his philosophical outlook.
And so it made sense to me to have music and dancing be these areas where, for a minute, your conscious brain is taken out of the equation. You have a physical connection, or you have a magical musical connection, and it just gives you access to another relationship building, in this other way, that's so much more about instinct and other things that your brain can't consciously mess up.
Nicola Yoon: You have to turn your brain off. Like I love to ski, and one of my favorite things about skiing is that, cause I will overthink anything, like seriously, I will think it to death, please stop me. Just turn off, right? But when you're doing physical activities, especially things that are complicated that also might kill you if you don't concentrate on them, there's a part of your brain that turns off and it's great.
So skiing is one of those things where I'm doing them really, basically, trying not to die, and I do not think about anything. And there's a handful of activities that are like that, but that's true, especially for Evie, when she's dancing, she can't sort of spin out of control. And I always feel like we talk about this mind/body disconnect, especially in Western things, and they're not disconnected at all, but we always act like they are.
Sarah Enni: Yes. Well, and I read this and was thinking about it in the context of, I have this workout that I do, it's like streaming workout, and it's only music, nobody counting or talking at you. And the point, the instructor does that on purpose, cause she says, "The point is for you to just get into your body and to move through stuff."
The other day I was doing it, and I'm in this phase, I know you'll appreciate this cause you're a sensitive person too, I was like, "I'm in this phase where I'm just crying at the drop of a hat." You know? That's just where I'm at.
And I was doing the workout and just stopped, and sat down, and cried, and was like, "All right, whatever, this is, needs to be expressed. And I just don't need to think about it." This is part of the whole thing, move your body, move through it and then move on with your life. So I was like, "Oh yeah, dancing would be such a great way to connect and see something that you couldn't express."
Nicola Yoon: Yeah. I will tell you, I've been crying about everything too, so....
Sarah Enni: Something in the world... Taurus season [laughs].
Nicola Yoon: Oh, Taurus season [Laughs]. It is Taurus season.
Sarah Enni: Oh, it gets you every year, you know? Anyway, I appreciate you speaking to that. And also, I could tell, I was like, "Oh, Nicola definitely took dancing lessons and she was definitely enjoying this." Cause it read like so joyful.
I want to make sure that we talk about Joy Revolution, which is such an exciting thing. Do you mind just telling people what Joy Revolution is and I'd love to hear its origin story.
Nicola Yoon: So Joy Revolution is a young adult imprint at Random House Children's Books, and it's focused on telling big, swoony love stories, starring people of color, written by people of color. And I feel like I have been talking about my desire to see more love stories with people of color since I started writing books, right?
It's one of the first things David and I talked about in grad school, when we met. How there's so many how stories, especially love stories, which I really love and he does too, that don't feature people of color. You always have the sort of sassy Black girl sidekick, she's not the main character. She's not the sweet, charming, vulnerable one, who's quirky who gets the guy or the girl or whoever, right?
They're always the sounding board on the side and I can count on one hand where you see the super-hot Asian boy romantic character. And the Black boy, that's like swoony and philosophical and big-hearted and like holding the boom-box, or whatever, you just don't see these characters.
And listen, I fell in love every other day in high school. So I know Black girls who are into love and love romance, they exist. And I am married to David and he is romantic, and swoony, and sexy, whatever. So I just want more of these stories in the world, and David does too.
And the origin story is kind of wild because I actually called Barbara Marcus, who's the head of Random House Children's Books, cause David and I have been talking about this forever, like ever since graduate school. And it was last year, I called Barbara, and I was like, "You know, I think we should do this. I want to do this." So I sort of picture what this could be, and Barbara is really funny because she listens very well. She listened, she listened, she was like, "Well you know, write me something and send it to me." And I was like, "Okay, Barbara." And I was like, "Okay, this is an opening."
And so then I wrote like a pitch for the whole thing, Dave and I worked on it, and then I sent it to her and she said, "Thanks." And then I hadn't heard from her for a couple of weeks and I was just like, "Ah, I guess it's dead." And then two weeks later I get this note from her, very short, just like, "This is great. I want to do it. Let's do it." And that was like the whole [unintelligible]. I was just like, "Barbara, oh my gosh, you're killing me."
And I screamed! I ran from my office all the way through our house to where David was, and I was like [pretends to scream] "Barbara said yes!" It was absurd.
Sarah Enni: Oh, that's so exciting!
Nicola Yoon: She's amazing. She's been such a great champion just of me and my career, and now Joy Revolution, and she's really just been lovely as a mentor. And so, yeah, I mean that is sort of the origin story.
And now we have Bria Ragin, who's the editor, and it's under Delacourte. So my editor, Wendy, is also involved with Joy Revolution. It's good. It's good. I'm crossing off all the things
Sarah Enni: And just to be super clear, so everyone knows what we're talking about, Joy Revolution is an imprint, so that means that you and David are publishers. You work on the submissions?
Nicola Yoon: Yes. So David and I are co-publishers of Joy Revelation and we're acquiring editors. So we read everything, along with Bria who is the day-to-day, in the trenches with the manuscripts and authors. And it's been interesting being on this side of things.
Because a manuscript and a book are two different things, right? And so it's been interesting looking at a manuscript and imagining what they could be and seeing what the potential is, what we love about it, and what we would want to ask for changes, if there's anything we would want to change.
And also, we are so passionate about this mission [pauses]. It's really important to me. I really do think that we can change the world a little bit by having some more of these stories. So many times you see stories with people of color and they're about pain and racism, or all the bad things that are happening, but that's not the whole story. And also it's not great for me to only read stories about Black girls that are about racism.
I'm not gonna lie. It's just not. It's not good for anyone. And it's also just not true, right? Everyone gets the full measure of their humanity. We contain multitudes, everyone does. And the way David puts this is like, "These books are meant to be a safe space for everyone." You pick up a Joy Revolution book, and it is not going to be about people hating you because of the color of your skin. It's just not. It's going to be swooney, and romantic, and ridiculous, in the best ways.
Sarah Enni: Yes. Oh, that's wonderful. I love that that's your mission. And I'm thinking about this in First Draft and how I run it as a small business. That's more or less what you're doing is running this small business. And so when you have a mission, it's so much easier. You're like, "The mission guides decisions."
Nicola Yoon: It does! So many times I go, "Wait, but does this actually fit?" I'm like, "This is a great book, but it may be for someone else." And so it does help to have this goal in mind.
Sarah Enni: And so that also means you are in these acquisitions meetings, yes?
Nicola Yoon: Yes.
Sarah Enni: You have these regular... you are really on the other side of it now, seeing how all of the sauce is made.
Nicola Yoon: I mean, it's nice, and also just like, "Wow!"
[Both laugh]
Sarah Enni: The veil is pulled all the way back.
Nicola Yoon: Yeah. But it's good though, because I do feel like, you know, there's my books, but also I just want to sort of shepherd lots of books, and lots of authors into the world. I'm not a person that loves being online and being an activist online. I actually really hate being online, especially on Twitter. But this is my activism.
This thing that I'm doing is the thing that I really believe in. And so that's my way of trying to change the conversation, and change things in America, a little bit. I mean, I know this is a small thing, but you know, lots of little raindrops, lots of people doing stuff, maybe it will make a difference.
Sarah Enni: Oh yeah. And I was gonna say, you and I are in this because we believe that one book has the power to change many lives, that's part of why we do this. But you are also putting yourself in a position to multiply. You can publish many more books than you can write, right, in a lifetime.
Nicola Yoon: Exactly. And that's definitely a part of it. I was like, "Listen, I can't write all the books." And there's so many wonderful books out there, too, let's be clear. I'm not the first and only that's doing this, but you know, if I can help, I'm gonna help.
Sarah Enni: Absolutely. Again, the listeners of the show are publishing nerds like me, so how many books do you get a season, or per year? Or how are you thinking about the total - what you're able to put out.
Nicola Yoon: Right, so we're thinking four to six per year to start, because we're getting our feet wet. So that's what we're thinking. And then we have plans for an empire, but we have to begin first [laughs].
Sarah Enni: And four to six books a year. I mean, I have got to imagine you're reading many, many, many more than that as the publisher.
Nicola Yoon: Yeah.
Sarah Enni: So, as we said, it just got founded in 2020, the first books will come out in 2022, but you're already like fully in it. How is it balanced? How much time is it taking? I'm so interested in how it's been on a day-to-day basis.
Nicola Yoon: It's a lot of work, so to be clear, that's just true. But I've said it a few times, but like, I just don't know how else to be. I just really need to do this. And so we get up early, a lot of days. It's been easier now, our little girl is back in school. But before she was at home, as all kids in America were for a while. And so it's a lot of work reading through everything, and also maintain our writing careers.
And we both have books coming out. So we have all this other stuff on top of it. It's not been onerous though, because we're both so passionate about it. It's just like, we have to read that manuscript and I go, "Oh my God." And then we just sort of stay up to read it, and just do it.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, I appreciate that perspective on it. Cause I do think there's not a magic solution ever, right? It's just kind of like, "Well, you just do the work."
Nicola Yoon: You just gotta do it. If you really want it. And it doesn't feel like so much, I mean, there are days when it feels like work because I'm tired and I just want to go to bed. But also, it's so fulfilling, so it's okay.
Sarah Enni: I know, sometimes I'm like, "Ugh, I have to read so much for this podcast." And then you pick up a book and all of a sudden your 50 pages in and you're like, "Oh, I get to read for this podcast." There's this shift that happens.
Last thing, and then I swear I'll let you go, also is that Blackout is coming out.
Nicola Yoon: Yes, June 22nd.
Sarah Enni: I was about to call it an anthology, it's not really though. Do you mind explaining Blackout for us?
Nicola Yoon: So it's funny that after going for four-and-a-half years without a book out, I now have two [laughs]. It's like, "What? What's happening?" So Blackout is wonderful. Blackout is an interconnected novel, it was Dhonielle Clayton's idea. But the main idea is that it's a blackout in New York City and we have like six stories of six couples sort of navigating this blackout. And they're all connected to each other. They all know each other.
And then Tiffany Jackson, who's one of the authors, her story threads through all the stories. So her story actually interweaves throughout the book. It's me, Dhonielle Clayton, Tiffany Jackson, Nic Stone, Angie Thomas, and Ashley Woodfolk. That's all of us. And it comes out three weeks after Instructions For Dancing comes out.
Sarah Enni: Which is amazing. And it's so fun that you guys have all gotten to write it together, which I can imagine would be such a fun, interesting puzzle. And now you get to promote it together, which is so nice.
Nicola Yoon: Dhonielle is the super genius who came up with the idea and it was really one of these things that was great to write during the pandemic. It was like a bright light to be writing that during pandemic. And also it was the summer of George Floyd and all the protests.
And so to be able to write this collection, this novel, where we're celebrating Black joy and Black love, was wonderful, it was magic. People ask if it was hard, but it wasn't, it wasn't actually. We are all simpatico. We all wanted the same thing and it was easy to pull it off.
Sarah Enni: I'm so glad. I'm so excited for that to be out there, so thank you for speaking to that too. So Nikki, I love having people back on the show because then I get to ask them what they've learned in the interim.
You've had so many pivotal experiences in the interim that have given you such new perspective on publishing. So I'd love to just hear if any of those experiences have given you new advice that you would like to share with writers.
Nicola Yoon: I would say, in the age of social media, and writers being asked to promote their books, and therefore to promote themselves, just remember to keep some stuff for yourself. If you're like me, who's fairly private, that's okay. You don't have to say everything and you don't have to respond to everyone. And I promise you, everyone has a notion of who you are, but try to remember that that is not who you are. You are yourself, and you know the truth about yourself, and it's okay to keep some stuff closed. It's okay to keep some stuff private.
And also, please, please, please have friends who are not in publishing, or if they are in publishing, that don't care about publishing at all. Or they don't care if your book does well or doesn't, they just love you. I think that's really important. I think that I have learned that in a fairly hard way, especially in this sort of gap between books.
Sarah Enni: I think that's really wise and really smart. Also, I think that failure is really important as a creative person, but I also think it's important to keep in mind that you don't have to tell everybody when you fail, you can also do that privately.
The urge is to share and commiserate and stuff like that, but I do think taking a deep breath before you tweet about an experience you've had, and then think like, "Do I want to just deal with that on my own?" Cause often in the guise of sharing and commiserating, we end up giving away information that just makes it feel worse.
Nicola Yoon: And it's so ephemeral too, you know? Social media thrives on heightened emotions and negativity and all that stuff. Like, group chat is wonderful, a one-on-one coffee date with a friend, that's the best thing. Cause sometimes you are wrong and you don't have to be wrong on the internet. You can just be wrong to a friend who will be like, "You must chill out." And you will be really super glad that you did not say that dumb thing.
And also, they are friends who are in real life, and they love you, they don't love all the rest of it. I will say that in between Sun and this new book, there was all this success and I didn't tell anyone what was going on with my mom or my father-in-law.
And I was at an event, this when I was sort of emerging from all of that, and my mom was on the mend. David was recovering and I was recovering from my father-in-law. And someone sort of implied that I had just taken off because I was so successful and I wasn't around anymore. And it sucked!
And I was just like, "You have no idea." So, just be aware that there's you, and there's a sort of fantasy of you, that people build in their heads. And that's just because of social media and it isn't really real. What's really real is coffee with a friend, or the group chat. You make it what it is, but keep you for you.
Sarah Enni: Oh, I think that's really wonderful advice. I think 'you don't have to be wrong on the internet' is the pull-coil for maybe for this whole podcast.
[Both laughing]
Nicola Yoon: Oh to be not loud and wrong on the internet, so many people are so loud and so wrong.
Sarah Enni: Oh my gosh. Well, it's so joyful to see you today, Nicola. Thank you for chatting with me and giving me so much time. I really appreciate your generosity with that.
Nicola Yoon: Thank you for having me, again. It's nice to catch up and to see the sort of bookends.
Sarah Enni: I know, it is. And I loved Instructions, I'm so glad it's out in the world, and hopefully we can hang and have coffee soon.
Nicola Yoon: Right, in real life.
Thank you so much to Nicola. Follow her on Twitter and Instagram and also on TikToK @NicolaYoon. You can follow me on Twitter and Instagram @Sarah Enni, and the show @FirstDraftPod (Twitter and Instagram).
Thanks again to our sponsor, Melanin in YA, a database comprised of Black YA authors, literary agents, editors, industry professionals, and influencers. Melanin in YA is a pivotal resource for everyone involved in traditional YA publishing. And it provides a bi-monthly news roundup of book deals, cover reveals, and more. Check it out @melaninnya.com, or follow on Instagram @MelanininYA and on Twitter @Melanin_YA.
Like I mentioned at the top of the show, leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast is a great way to help support the show and help new listeners find us. Lately, people have been leaving amazing ratings, and I'm so grateful for that, but I'd love to read some new reviews. So take a couple minutes, go over to Apple podcasts, if you leave a review, I will read it on the show and give you a shout-out and some listener love.
First Draft is produced by me, Sarah Enni. Today's episode was produced and sound designed by Callie Wright. The theme music is by Dan Bailey and the logo was designed by Collin Keith. Thanks to social media director, Jennifer Nkosi, and transcriptionist-at-large Julie Anderson.
And as ever, thanks to you, hopeless romantics writing your own stories, for listening.
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