Camryn Garrett

First Draft Episode #305: Camryn Garrett

May 20, 2021

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Camryn Garrett, author of Full Disclosure, talks about her new YA, Off the Record.

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Welcome to First Draft with me, Sarah Enni. This week I'm talking to Camryn Garrett, author of Full Disclosure, about her new YA, Off the Record. I loved what Camryn had to say about the early start to her professional life as a student journalist for Time Magazine, MTV, Rookie, Huffington Post, and more.

She talks about the pressure she put on herself as a young person to publish a book before she turned 18. And she talks about taking on big, difficult topics in her work, like people living with HIV and the 'me too' movement. And she gets real about the challenge of being a college student in quarantine.

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Okay, now please sit back, relax and enjoy my conversation with Camryn Garrett.

Sarah Enni:  Hi Cameron. How are you today?

Camryn Garrett:  I'm good. How are you?

Sarah Enni:  I'm doing well. I'm so excited to chat with you. I was such a fan of Full Disclosure, so I'm really excited for Off the Record, your new book. But before we get to that, your publishing career, I want to go all the way back to the beginning and hear about where you were born and raised

Camryn Garrett:  I'm from Long Island. So I grew up there and I was born there.

Sarah Enni:  And how was reading and writing a part of growing up for you?

Camryn Garrett:  I was really shy. So I read a lot of books and spent a lot of time at the library. And I used to write, I guess this was fan fiction, but I would write a sequel to movies in little composition notebooks and I would try to draw with them. I remember seeing, I think, Shark Boy and Lava Girl, and then writing a mini sequel that I gave up on, cause I was like six.

Sarah Enni:  I love that. And that perfectly leads me to the other question I was gonna ask, which is about film. I know you're passionate about film and movies, so I want to hear about how that was a part of growing up as well.

Camryn Garrett:  I think it was a little different because I was more focused on books and writing when I was a little younger, but I also feel like, and maybe this is true for other people, when I was younger, I felt like I could do more things. Like, "I can be a chef, and I can be an artist, and I can do whatever I want." And then when you get a little older, it's like, "I have to narrow it down." Or, "I don't think I'm as good as I thought when I was little."

So it's a little interesting, cause it was like the reverse for me. We watched a ton of movies when I was growing up, and my parents had specific movies that they would quote all throughout the movie, and it was really annoying. And then I think when I was maybe 14, I was like, "This is interesting." But I didn't know if I actually wanted to do it until I was like, I want to say 15 or 16. My school had this course that was film studies and it was a two year course. And I think when I took that, I really was like, "Oh, I think I can do this."

Sarah Enni:  Wow. And you know what you're saying reminds me of, I feel like I'm conflicted about how early we ask young people to narrow down their... like what they're allowed to be passionate about. I always feel sad remembering that when I was like 13, I was like, "I'll never be a professional soccer player." It's like, "Well, no, but also, yeah, everyone who's a professional soccer player is basically doing it from the age of five on and they're doing almost nothing else." So I don't know, I wish everyone could do everything until a certain age. But you're right, at some point you do have to start really focusing in on what comes naturally to you.

Camryn Garrett:  Yeah. And I know a group of other writers who started as teens, and on one hand, I think our society puts too much pressure on doing things as a younger person. You know what I mean? Like with 30 Under 30 lists and the idea that if you don't succeed before a certain age, it doesn't matter.

But I think, talking to my friends and then also my own experience, I think there was the sense that because most of us are people of color and most of us are either women or genders that aren't men, we were like, "We have to start younger if we're gonna break in because it's so hard." And I think that kind of connects to what you're saying about soccer players, where there's this sense that if you want to be in a competitive industry, you have to start younger and younger. And I think it's really stressful and scary.

Sarah Enni:  It is really stressful and scary. And this is kind of reminding me, I read an article where you wrote, or where you said, that you had had the goal of being published before you turned 18. I mean talk about pressure.

Camryn Garrett:  It's so interesting because I remember writing in middle school and talking to my homeroom teacher and saying, "I'm so stressed. I have to finish this draft." And she was like, "Why? Are you giving it to someone?" And I said, "No." She said like, "Is it due somewhere?" And I said, "No." And she was like, "So I don't understand why it has to be done right now." And that's sort of what I was like until, I think, 17 because I just put so much pressure on myself.

My parents didn't put pressure on me. I had a book that didn't sell when I was like 16, and I was like, "My life's over." And my mom was like, "What? "Like, "What's wrong with you?" So I don't know if it's like an innate thing, like I'm just like that, or if it was a societal thing. I don't know, it's hard to tell.

Sarah Enni:  I was gonna ask about that because I do think that some people put a lot on college, because when they're young, they feel like nothing can happen until they're after 18. And you had kind of internalize the sense that if you hadn't already started something by the time you were 18, you'd be kind of pushed to the margins or unable to get there.

I think you're right to say there's gotta be a blend of inherent ambition and then seeing how difficult it can be. Especially, as you say, for intersectional women to break into the industries that are really competitive, like film and TV, and books.

Do you mind talking about how you kind of gave yourself a little bit more permission to take your time?

Camryn Garrett:  I'm still sort of not struggling, but remembering that, cause I'm going through some things sort of similar. And I think I stopped writing for a little bit and was just going to school, and reading, and hanging out with my friends. And I think the idea came to me, the idea for Full Disclosure, and it felt very self-indulgent, the same way that my second book actually did. And I was like, "I just have to write this. It'll be so much fun. It'll be so cool."

And I had so much fun writing it. And I think that's when I was like, "Oh, I want to write again." Before I had thought, "Maybe I should wait until I'm older and I don't need to do this right now." And then I wrote the book for fun, and after I'd written it, I was like, "I love this so much that I want to do something with it."

Sarah Enni:  Interesting, it's also such an interesting choice of words. You say that it felt self-indulgent. I think I want to bring that up later, cause I'd love to hear more about that. I also struggle with whether or not writing is a completely selfish act. I don't think it is, but sometimes it feels like that.

But first I don't want to skip to Full Disclosure before talking about your experience as a young reporter. Do you mind telling us about the Time for Kids? I think you were 13 when you got a pretty amazing opportunity.

Camryn Garrett:  We used to read Time for Lids in my classrooms. They had an ad for a kid reporter every year, it was like a contest. I think they still do it. And I think there was a limit, like an age limit, so the oldest you could be was 13. And I thought, "I'll apply because this is the last year I'm allowed to do it." I think I had to write an article about someone in my community, and I wrote about my friend's mom who owned a flower shop. And I won.

And it was really cool because they sent me, for a year, to different events. So I went to a press junket for Frozen, before it came out, and I got to interview Idina Menzel and Kristen Bell. And I went to the U.S. Open - that was really cool. What else did I do? I interviewed a lot of authors, which was fun. Like I interviewed R.J. Palacio who wrote Wonder, and they were all really supportive and impressed.

And I was super shy, which was also part of why I had done it. So I think it brought me out of my shell and it also made me think of myself more seriously as a writer, or the idea that I could do it. It was a really awesome experience.

Sarah Enni:  We're talking about you getting the opportunity to write non-fiction, so you start interviewing people. And then you also have a lot of, I think, throughout your teenage years, you wrote many personal essays online, on your blog, and for a lot of outlets. I would love to hear from you how your interview style developed and how you think this style of non-fiction writing does, or doesn't, translate into the fiction writing that you're doing now.

Camryn Garrett:  So, I did the Time for Kids before I started high school, but when I started high school we had a journalism class, which was really cool, where we worked on a newspaper. I took that all four years of high school and I think that really impacted the way I write, because we were taught a certain structure.

So when we went on submission I spoke to an editor, who we didn't go with, but she said she could tell that I had a background in journalism because there's something concise about the way I wrote, which I found really interesting. I write really short drafts, not really short, but around like the 50K mark and usually have to work on expanding. And I think that came from both, like with Time for Kids, I usually had a small amount of space. And then for my school newspaper, I also was really concise, I guess.

Sarah Enni:  I also have a background in journalism and then turned to fiction. And I will say, I do think that you can tell when an author, there's also such a priority in journalism put on not fancy language, not complicated sentence structure, just like a lot of emphasis on clarity, I think.

Camryn Garrett:  It's true. My journalism teacher would always say, "Describe what the reader won't assume, and then don't describe anything else." You know what I mean? And I think that also impacted the way I write, cause I do that.

Sarah Enni:  I would love to hear about the early books you were writing and how you got agented.

Camryn Garrett:  I wrote so many [chuckles]. I got the first agent when I was 15, the second when I was 16 or 17, and then we sold Full Disclosure really fast.

Sarah Enni:  So, as we've covered, you just have such a prolific teenage career so far and now you are, I think, are you a junior in college? Is that right?

Camryn Garrett:  Yes. Yeah.

Sarah Enni:  I want to talk about Full Disclosure and Off the Record, and then also mix in hearing about what you're studying in school and how you're developing on that side of things too. But before I ask about Full Disclosure, do you mind pitching that book for us?

Camryn Garrett:  Oh yeah, it's been a while since I pitched it. It's about a teenage girl named Simone who has HIV and she's starting at a new school and she starts receiving mysterious letters in her locker saying, "I know you have HIV and if you don't stop seeing this boy you started seeing, I'm going to tell the whole school." And she has to figure out who's leaving her these letters.

Sarah Enni:  Do you mind talking about what inspired you to write this book? I think you got really passionately into reading about HIV AIDS.

Camryn Garrett:  This is so weird, but I used to be really, really into reading about adoption. I was like, "I'm gonna adopt one day and I'm 16 and I'm gonna read about this all the time," for some reason. And I would read adoption blogs. And there are specific websites that tell you about adoption processes. I remember reading a lot of adoptive parents adopt kids with special needs, especially if it's international adoption.

And I remember reading multiple blogs where they had adopted a child with HIV. And I remember when Angela Jolie adopted one of her children, she thought they had HIV. And so I was really ignorant, I didn't know anything, and I was like, "Why would you adopt a child with HIV if they're just gonna die when they get here?" I think my mom actually said something to me, my mom's a nurse, and she was like, "It's actually not like that." She pointed out Magic Johnson, she was like, "He's still alive." And I really, honestly, hadn't thought about that.

So I started Googling and reading. And I started reading the blogs first, and they would say like, "It's really not that difficult to deal with. Here's what I do with my child in terms of her medication and like her doctors." And they would always say like, "There's nothing wrong with my child having HIV. The only time this is gonna affect her, or him, is when they have sex, and they're not gonna have sex until they're married."

And I remember kind of not being into it, I was like, "I don't know if that'll happen." And so that's sort of where the first idea came from cause I was like, "What if you have HIV and you have to disclose that before you have sex for the first time?"

Sarah Enni:  I want to dive into the draft in a second, but I'm just so curious, obviously you were thinking about adoption and that's how you got here, but you've written a few articles about your really extensive research into HIV AIDS at that time. I'm just wondering what you think about what made you so drawn to this as a subject matter and, obviously, it's really affected you.

Camryn Garrett:  I just couldn't believe that I hadn't been taught about it. In my health class, we talked about how you can get HIV, what it is, what it does to your body, but we didn't talk about the way it's treated. We did not talk about the AIDS crisis that happened here in the eighties and nineties, like at all. And I was really into history and I took like multiple advanced-level history classes and it was never touched upon.

This is like a whole thing, but I get that they teach to like the AP exam or state exams, but it was just truly, I could not wrap my head around the fact that I'd never ever come across it. And so many people died. So many people lost loved ones and AIDS was not mentioned.

And I think it made me angry because it sort of mirrors the way that the rest of the country treated the AIDS crisis when it was happening. They just pretended it wasn't happening. And then for it to still be erased, especially since I went to school in New York and this was one of the big places that it impacted, it really bothered me. And I think that's one of the reasons why I wanted to learn more.

Sarah Enni:  And especially considering it happened so recently. It's shocking that it's a bit of a gap in broader cultural knowledge in some kind of odd way. I want to ask, you mentioned you're a history nerd. And from reading about your research process, you are obviously also a very skilled researcher, which is fantastic.

But what struck me was, I know conversations in the queer community about history are really emotional and difficult, especially when you're talking about the AIDS crisis. Many people aren't here to share their stories anymore. And there's also a lot of eraser because of the government then, and because of many reasons now.

So queer stories, and stories about people of color in this country, are not written down and memorialized and studied the same as white history, and much is lost. Obviously that seems to have affected you emotionally, but I wonder how much that factors into your desire to be a storyteller.

Camryn Garrett:  Wow. Yeah, I think it's part of why I wanted to write about it. I wanted to address how people barely know, or not barely, but not enough people know about the AIDS crisis and how it impacted queer communities. But then there was also this other layer of, right now, HIV impacts the Black community, specifically, a lot. There are really high rates of Black people with HIV, and that's not talked about either.

If the queer community isn't talking about it, the Black community talks about it even less. And so that was, I think, my way of trying to address that, and write about that. Was centering a Black girl and sort of tying in all these different communities. Her parents are queer, are she's queer. I wanted to have all of those things in the story to sort of address the fact that people don't give queer elders, and people who have gone through this, the attention that they deserve.

Sarah Enni:  And that's an incredible, rich, emotional place to come from as a storyteller. That's also taking a lot on, especially a debut book. Did you feel a lot of pressure about that? Or did you feel invigorated by that as a challenge? How did you kind of think about that?

Camryn Garrett:  When I wrote the first draft, a lot of the research was like, "What are the day-to-day things that people with HIV deal with? What is it like to be a kid with HIV?" And then, as I went from draft to draft, I did more and more. And I think by the time I was really entrenched in all of this queer history, I was nervous, but I was also like, "Oh, I have to do this because this is so important to me. And because I want people who are my age to know more about this." Especially since so many of my friends are queer, or questioning, and discovering their sexuality. I was like, "This would be really important to them."

And so I really wanted an accessible way to talk about these things. And the book isn't super into the AIDS crisis, but there's a list of resources in the back. So I was really hoping that people would go and they'd read books by people who had actually been there, and watch documentaries. So, sort of knowing that I'm not trying to speak for a community, but like direct toward them, if that makes sense? Made me feel better about it.

Sarah Enni:  I do want to ask about the process of writing the book. You said it was self-indulgent. Did you write it for NaNoWriMo?

Camryn Garrett:  I did. Yeah.

Sarah Enni:  Can you talk about what was that like?

Camryn Garrett:  I wrote, honestly, a three page outline. And like I said, it was a fun process, and I sort of used the whole mystery aspect as like a Trojan horse, I guess. Because I was trying to think of like, "What will make..." I'm really bad at plot. And so I was like, "How can I sort of structure this?" Because I was more interested in HIV and queerness and all the family dynamics. And I was like, "If I just wrote about that, no one will care." Because it'll just be that. So it was self-indulgent but to a degree.

And the first draft, I think, focused a lot on the romance between Simone and the love interest Miles. And then later drafts was when, cause my agent read it and was like, "I can tell who did it. There's really no mystery at all." And so that, I think, was layered in.

Sarah Enni:  That's so interesting, and such a good way to think about it, you set up this ticking clock within a contemporary story. I think that sometimes people who write contemporary do have to take on this extra challenge of like, "How do you make it feel as pulse pounding as some international spy thriller?" Right?

So bringing in an external force, like this person threatening to reveal her secret, obviously helps propel it. But then at the same time you can maintain this character-focused story cause a lot of that is still internal work.

Camryn Garrett:  Yeah, it's true.

Sarah Enni:  So you have been writing, and taking yourself seriously as a writer, for a long time. And then you said you took a little break and then Full Disclosure sort of arrived as this passion project. What was it like to sell the book and go through the debut author experience?

Camryn Garrett:  I think I was a senior in high school when it sold. And so, yeah, I think that was like the best year of my life so far. Because it was like before I had gotten any edits, and it was my senior year, so I wasn't really doing any homework. And I think everyone knew, like everyone in my school, so everyone was like, "Wow, this is so cool!"

And I think I had my own money because I got part of the advance. So I was just living my best life. One thing that I hadn't anticipated was, I was worried by the edits. And what I mean is, they were good edits, but I was like, "If I didn't come up with this all by myself, am I really the writer?" Do you know what I mean?

Sarah Enni:  Oh, interesting.

Camryn Garrett:  I was like, "I should've come up with this all by myself. And the fact that she's shaping this book so much means that I'm not a real author." That was the idea I had because I was like, "There clearly must be something wrong if it has to go through edits like this." And I don't really know how I got over that. I think talking to other authors and hearing how rough their drafts were.

Sarah Enni:  Oh boy, yeah. You're certainly not alone in that experience.

Camryn Garrett:  And just realizing like, "This is what editors do." And I think just learning how many people work on a book, and how long it takes to put the book together, and realizing that it's not just the author.

Sarah Enni:  I'm so interested that you had that perception as well, considering that you had obviously spent many years already being edited, and working with editors, just in a nonfiction environment.

Camryn Garrett:  I don't know why I thought of books as a separate thing. I really don't know. I guess because with newspaper or Time for Kids, it was going in a magazine with their name on it. And so I was like, "This is part of someone else's thing." Whereas the book, it has my name on the cover, and it has Random House on it. But I was like, "This is me." You know?

So I think there was me putting pressure on myself like, "This should be perfect." When I first started writing, I had that issue because I kept comparing what I was writing to actual published books. Not recognizing how many rounds of edits it had gone through. And that would make it really, really hard to finish a draft.

Sarah Enni:  Oh god, I can imagine. And I'm pretty passionate, personally, about trying to rip the veil away and take away some of the opacity of the publishing process. Because, like you're saying, this was a lot of pressure you were putting on yourself and you didn't have to.

So I love that you had sort of the ultimate senior year, that is incredible. Then you have this amazing experience, a debut novel, then I'm just trying to put myself in your shoes. You have a second book in that contract, and you're going to college. We all know second books are really hard and a whole different animal. And then going to college is unique to everyone, but a wild thing. What was that experience like?

Camryn Garrett:  So I feel like a cheater, but I wrote the first draft of my second book before the first book came out.

Sarah Enni:  Oh, smart!

Camryn Garrett:  Which, I hadn't planned it out like that because I actually had another book that I'd written, and I said, "I want this to be my book two." And my agent read Off the Record and it was like, "Oh, this is so much better," basically. She said, "You should really go with this because it's timely. And it's good."

I had written, again, this was self-indulgent. And what I mean is, I was really into film, and journalism, and the way that 'me too' is being covered in the press. And so it was me writing about these things that I thought were super interesting. And I think I wrote the draft and I didn't think about it for a while and then editing wasn't that bad, I want to say. It wasn't that bad.

I don't think it was that bad. I think the only hard part for me has been right now, with promoting it and then also trying to do school. And it wasn't this hard last time. I don't know if it's like pandemic or I don't know. I mean, I've spoken to my friends and it feels like last semester our professors, and the school, went easier on us. And now they're just like, "This is normal. Deal with it."

So it's a little hard. When the first book came out, I told everyone about my first book. And I haven't told anyone, this time around, about the book, or about my writing career at all. Because my first time people were like, "Oh yeah, you have a book." Like, "Go ahead." And this time I haven't told anyone.

Sarah Enni:  You mean your professors and stuff like that?

Camryn Garrett:  Yeah, yeah. The professors were like so impressed. They were like, "Do what you want." This time I just haven't told anyone.

Sarah Enni:  Listen, people get totally derailed by promo even when their full-time job is writing exclusively. So you are dealing with a lot of X factors. Pandemic and virtual promotion is it's whole other kind of exhausting thing. So take it easy.

Camryn Garrett:  Thanks.

Sarah Enni:  Before I ask more questions about Off the Record, do you mind pitching the book for us?

Camryn Garrett:  So Off the Record is about a teen journalist who wins a contest and gets the chance to go on a promotional tour with a movie. And while she's on the tour, she uncovers a sexual assault scandal. And she has to decide if she's just going to focus on the story she is supposed to tell, or if she's going to dig in and uncover this story about the women who have been hurt.

Sarah Enni:  How does Josie's experience mirror what you went through as a young reporter and how is it different?

Camryn Garrett:  So, wow, a lot of it was based on my experience. I wanted to write about that time in my life because it was so cool and I wanted to write about it somehow. Because I was so shy, I would get really, really, really anxious before interviews. And that was something that Josie and I share. Also, she goes to a press junket and she's sort of out of place amongst all of these adults. And that was something I felt, especially since my mom came with me everywhere because I was 13 and everyone was like an actual adult.

Sarah Enni:  Early on, Josie has the experience of being the only girl in a room full of adults who are sort of jaded journalist types. And then later she has the experience of being in a real functioning newsroom as well. And I was so excited when I got to that part because I was like, "Oh, Josie's uncovering this 'me too' story." And I was really aware, while reading it, this is a very difficult kind of story even for professional journalists.

So I was so excited that you brought in this perspective of somebody who would be an editor for that kind of story at the New York Times or similar. And it was a very realistic portrayal of like, "How do you fact check this? How do you get into that?" So I was really nerdily excited about that part.

Camryn Garrett:  Thank you. I've read... what was it called? She Said by Megan Twohey and Jodi Kantor which was about their experience breaking their Harvey Weinstein stories. And that, I was super nerdy about that. So that sort of, you know, folded in.

Sarah Enni:  Yes, I was gonna ask if you had read that book cause it was definitely giving me throw-back vibes. And those two women are actually writing a YA version of that book, all about an investigative reporter, which I am so excited about.

Camryn Garrett:  I saw that.

Sarah Enni:  So that was on my mind, as well, when I was reading this. And I was like, "This is great! More teen reporters!" I want to ask about Simone in Full Disclosure, has a very different life experience from yourself, in many ways. But Josie has a lot of similarities. Did that make her any easier to write or was it a little scary to get closer to home? Or how did that feel?

Camryn Garrett:  When I wrote the first draft, it was fun. And then when we had to edit it, I was like, "Oh, no." Cause it was, um, I don't know. Am I allowed to say something personal?

Sarah Enni:  Oh, absolutely. Whatever you're comfortable with.

Camryn Garrett:  So the first draft I wrote Josie having this experience that I had, that I couldn't really remember. I know in middle school there was a boy who used to make comments about my breasts. I know something happened where it like had reached a peak and my mom had to call someone, but I don't remember what exactly happened. So I wrote that into Josie.

I wrote something similar where like she knew something had happened, but she didn't remember it. And no one would really tell her. And my editor was basically like, "You should provide more detail," basically. Because Josie would talk about it really vaguely. And I wanted to base it on my own experiences, but I didn't remember them. So I was like, "Let me just do this completely differently." But that was an instance where it was like, "Oh, this is gonna be published. So I have to actually be edited." Do you know what I mean?

Sarah Enni:  Right. And thank you for sharing that. That's another thing many contemporary... I'll just speak to my experience, it's hard to write a contemporary story and have it be so close to home and then be edited and have someone say, "This isn't believable."

Camryn Garrett:  I think my editor is great. My editor is awesome and I didn't say this to her, so this might be a little weird if she listens to it. But I did tell her about that because I was like, Josie has this struggle where she's like, "I don't really know if what happened to me counts as sexual harassment or sexual assault." And that was something that I also struggled with. I was like, "I don't even remember this. So I don't know what it is."

So I feel weird emailing her and being like, "I actually want to do this because it's happened to me, but I don't know what it is." So I was like, "I'm just not gonna touch it." And I think that is part of why my first book was about an experience that wasn't mine, because I think it can be really hard when you're writing so personally, because not everything that happens to you makes sense to other people, even if it makes perfect sense to you.

Sarah Enni:  Could not agree more with that sentiment. And I wonder how you felt about this as you were writing. Your personal life shouldn't be up for review on GoodReads, you know? That's a challenging position to put yourself in as a writer that you want to share and really mine your own life and work through your fiction, that's the point of this as an art form. But where the rubber hits the road is that then people can approach it and give feedback, that is not taking that into account, let's say.

Camryn Garrett:  Yeah, I remember, oh god, I don't remember the book. But I remember there was a book and sexual assault was a big piece of it. And on Twitter people were saying, for some reason, that the woman who wrote it hadn't actually gone through something like that. And I forget why they were like, "The way she writes about it isn't convincing," or something. It was so weird. And I was so uncomfortable. The whole thing just made me so uncomfortable.

And when I wrote this and I realized it's going to be published, I was worried. Because I was like, "Are people going to ask me, 'Has something like this happened to you?'" And am I going to have to try to make sense of my experiences on Twitter. My editor and everyone at [unintelligible] is really cool. And I don't think they would ever expect me to do something like that. And so far, no one has said anything about it.

But I really don't think you should have to bare some parts of your soul just because you wrote about something. This is kind of sad, but at this point, I do assume that most women have gone through something like this. Plus the fact that it's really traumatic, so why would I ever ask someone...? I just find it so presumptuous, in a really mean way, to say, "This doesn't sound accurate to me." About this really tough topic to write about.

Sarah Enni:  Yes. Yes. I think that's so well put and important to keep in mind. And part of what made Josie's conversation about that, in the story, so important, me, as a reader, I felt really validated by hearing Josie talk that out about, "Does this count?" Or, "Is this as important?" And having characters in the book all sort of address that explicitly and make room for everyone's experience. That was really well done.

And a related question I had for you is, Josie is trying her best to do a good job and be a good person but, of course, she is a character in a novel and so she makes mistakes, and there is conflict about that. And that's kind of oddly hard to do as a writer right now especially when you're talking about young adult stories. People want to hold up young adult stories as examples or perfect characters in a way that is just not even the point of literature. So I'm just curious about what you thought about making Josie a well-intentioned, but very flawed person.

Camryn Garrett:  I would argue that I don't just see that in YA. I see that a lot. This is kind of not related, but it's related, where Taylor Swift had tweeted about that show on Netflix, I think Ginny and Georgia, and someone made a sexist joke about her on the show. And I get the frustration, but also, the conversation that it created was like, "No one should be saying anything bad on a TV show."

And I was like, "But if you watch the show, the character who says it is kind of a jerk. She's kind of a pain." Part of the journey is seeing that she's a pain and she kind of sucks, to her becoming aware. So I do feel like there's this expectation in a lot of people now that fake characters, that fictional characters, be good all the time. And that if they do something bad, it reflects the views of the creator.

That all being said, I wanted Josie to have flaws because I feel like everyone does, and it would come across really weird. I'm trying to think of a better word than weird, but it would just be so odd if this teenager comes into every room and is just amazing at this job that a lot of adults struggle with. It would be so weird.

There probably will be people who don't like the things that she does wrong, which I get, but also if she made no mistakes, there would be people like, "Why is she like this?" Like, "Why is she so perfect?" And I think another reason why that was important to me is because I feel a lot of people say on social media like, "Black women will save us." Especially with the recent elections.

And I do think Black women are amazing, and great, and fantastic - not to toot my own horn - but I also feel like that is a really easy way to forget the humanity of Black women. When you deify them and make it seem like we're superhuman, you forget that Black women can get tired, and Black women can be vulnerable and insecure. And so I wanted to show that Josie has the best of intentions, but makes a lot of mistakes, and it's because she's human.

Sarah Enni:  And I love that about Josie and that's really well said. Alice is Josie's sister and she goes along with Josie as kind of a chaperone for all of this stuff, all the interviews and press junket stuff that Josie's getting to do as part of the book. And Alice was one of my favorite characters, honestly, she was so great. I thought she was drawn so realistically and with a lot of subtlety and she was also very funny.

And I love that you brought a sister into the main storyline in that way. Because growing up and coming into yourself doesn't only mean changing in the eyes of your parents, your siblings have to learn to grow and change with each other too. So I was just wondering what you wanted to express by showing this kind of rocky, but ultimately, supportive relationship between Josie and Alice.

Camryn Garrett:  I really love sister stories like Little Women and To All the Boys I Loved Before. And I feel like I'm more interested in where things went wrong. I'm just thinking of the evil, I'll call her evil, the sister Amy in Little Women, and that contentious relationship between her and Jo. I love the sort of crackling relationship there. And it also reflects my relationship with my sister where we don't always get along.

I don't want to say that I don't see it a lot, but I didn't see it specifically how I felt it. So I wanted to write that in where you're like, "Oh my god. Why doesn't this person understand me? Why does this person not like me?" Sort of realizing you don't have to like each other to love each other. That sounds so cliché. But that was really important to me to have sisters who butt heads and don't agree really on anything, and still really love each other and support each other.

Sarah Enni:  I thought it was sweet that they find they had been making assumptions about one another. And as you get the chance to break down those assumptions and really become a full person, you get to grow and change and get to know someone as who they really are.

Camryn Garrett:  I think I wrote this my first or second year at college. And I think being away from my sister changed our relationship a lot. Because it was like, now that we're not at home, being in a different place made it easier to see her as a person and not just as my little sister. And I wanted to do that in the book where they're not in their house anymore sharing a room, they're going all these places and seeing each other in different environments and realizing like, "Oh, this is a real full person and not just someone I live with."

Sarah Enni:  And I loved Alice shooting her shot, making friends. I was like, "There's another book about what Alice did while Josie was interviewing people."

Camryn Garrett:  It's true [laughs].

Sarah Enni:  In Full Disclosure, there was a lot of really frank and honest discussion about sex. And then Off the Record, there's a similarly frank and honest theme throughout of Josie's struggle with body positivity. Josie doesn't hate her body, but loving it isn't as easy as like a yoga pose and saying a mantra in a mirror. So I'd love to hear how you balance wanting to portray that honestly, while also, that's not the central theme of the book. So I'd love to hear about how you felt about writing about that.

Camryn Garrett:  I feel like with both of my books, I have a lot of things going on. And some people don't like it, and some people do. But I usually have little things I want to explore and they all end up in one book. And with Josie, specifically, she reminds me of myself. And one of the ways is that she has multiple things going on. She is fat, and she's a woman, and she is Black, and she is bisexual. And I feel like I see one or two of those things in a character, but not all of them, even though that like reflects my experience.

So I wanted to have that be part of who she is and not be like the main plot, because that's sort of how it is for me, specifically. I wanted to write about a character who doesn't hate her body, but who has a hard time loving it because that's where I was when I wrote this, I think I was 19 when I wrote this. And I saw characters who loved their bodies and who were fat, and I really loved those books, they were important for me. But I was like, "That's not quite where I am."

And I don't think it's bad if you don't super love your body. But I want to see a character who's trying, but has a hard time when she sees a Weight Watchers commercial, or when she can't fit into clothes at a store, because those things are rough. And I wanted to write someone who could commiserate with me, if that makes sense? Like someone who would get it. And so I wrote Josie.

Sarah Enni:  And again, with the sisters, there was a lot of supporting each other, but they couldn't really understand where she was coming from. I just thought it was done so well. And I can see so many readers really connecting with how Josie talks to herself about it.

Camryn Garrett:  Yeah, yeah. Thank you.

Sarah Enni:  I do want to ask about the Twitter headings. Josie is a prolific Tweeter, she's prolific on Twitter, as are you.

Camryn Garrett:  Sadly, yeah.

Sarah Enni:  You're a good follow, as they say. What made you think of Josie being a Twitter person and what made you think of putting fake tweets as the headings on all the chapters?

Camryn Garrett:  So I think I'm a lot more outspoken than Josie, but one of the reasons why I started being on social media when I was younger, was I didn't feel like anyone was listening to me. And I sort of wanted to explore that. The thing about Josie is she doesn't really speak to people, so it's not that they're not listening, she just doesn't talk. I always feel like quiet people will let it all out somewhere.

My sister was really quiet at school and teachers would tell my mom like, "She never speaks." And my mom would be like, "Oh, she speaks at home, all day." And I sort of wanted that thing going on with the tweets where it's like, she doesn't really say what she's feeling to people in real life, but she says it all online.

And I wanted to include the tweets as headings cause I sort of love seeing that stuff in books. Sort of like The Princess Diaries where she has lists or letters or things like that. I love seeing texts in books, pictures, just stuff that's not like straight up prose. I always find it really fun.

Sarah Enni:  And they served as a little bit of, as you say, Josie's very personal on Twitter. It almost felt like it was maybe a locked account or something.

Camryn Garrett:  I definitely think it would be a locked account.

Sarah Enni:  She was sort of giving a blow-by-blow as the day went on. And it gave us such an interesting perspective. As a reader, I was like, "I see. I'm in Josie's head and going through this with her." And then you're sort of seeing this other layer of Josie about how she would choose to process and put feelings about what's going on, out in the world. So it was really fun.

And it's fun to have anything besides just a number at the top of a chapter. So I loved it. Well gosh, I really want to ask about your year. I don't get the opportunity to talk to too many people who are in school while pandemic has been going on. And you've been writing and dealing with being uprooted and having to go to school in this whole different way. What's it been like for you?

Camryn Garrett:  It really sucks. I am a type of person who actually enjoys school, but this year I just have not, and I'm just not into it. The professors are really trying, but it just is not the same. I did take a Shakespeare class, which was fun.

But mostly I'm just like, "Oh, what's the point?" Which sucks because school's almost over. I like it. I've had a hard time writing. I've written several first drafts and then just not gone anywhere with them cause I'm like, "Oh, I don't really like this." And I think I wrote it just to say I was writing something. And then when I look at it, I'm like, "Oh, I don't want this anymore."

But yeah, that's sort of been my struggle. I've written a lot of short screenplays.

Sarah Enni:  Oh, that's good.

Camryn Garrett:  Yeah, that's fun. But it's so odd for me, I tweeted this. I planned out my life up to like the end of college, including which books I'd publish, and now I don't have that. And I pre-wrote books and what I mean is like Full Disclosure I wrote in high school, Off the Record, I wrote my first or second year of college. And then, hopefully, my third book I wrote senior year of high school.

So I knew which books I wanted to do, but now I don't have any plans, or any pre-written books, so I'm kind of like, "Oh, this is what normal people do." [Laughs]

Sarah Enni:  Well, you know what's funny is, it sounds to me like you're almost having the second book experience now.

Camryn Garrett:  I know, I know. My friend said that to me and it's not fun. I don't like it.

Sarah Enni:  Can confirm. Not great.

Camryn Garrett:  Yeah. It is not fun. And I haven't completely stopped, but I'm not working on something that I know is gonna be published, if that makes sense. So it's this weird feeling. It's kind of freeing and I'm like, "Oh, I can do what I want." But I miss having a plan. So I guess it's like my gap year of writing.

Sarah Enni:  Yeah. That's a good way to think about it. There's the potential too, and I feel like every writer struggles with what their process is, but there's the potential that your process could involve fallow periods, you know, filling the wells.

Camryn Garrett:  It's true.

Sarah Enni:  Especially since, and I do want to hear about what you have, or what you hope to do, on the film and television side of things.

Camryn Garrett:  I don't know. Well, I do know. I'm really into indie stuff, which sounds kind of pretentious, but I just really love indie stuff. And I could do a movie every like five years maybe. When I planned this out, and this plan went in the trash, obviously, because I don't know how to plan anything out anymore. But I was like, "I'll make a movie every five years and then do books in between." And that's a lot.

I mean, I still could do that. But I think I'm also trying to give myself, like you said, more breathing periods. But yeah, I want to write and direct, that would be really cool.

Sarah Enni:  You're already giving yourself such an advantage by generating your own IP, by writing your own stories. So that feels to me like a good step, you've got a leg up.

Camryn Garrett:  It's funny because I didn't think about this. When I first started the film thing and started at film school, I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna have to figure out a way to get into the industry, like my friends." And it wasn't until recently that, actually professors said like, "You could just adapt one of your books and then maybe that'll help you get a foot into the door to make other original stuff."

I've written original screenplays and I liked the idea of being in both books and film because I have some ideas that come in one medium and some that come in another. But I was gonna say books are more dependable, but I don't know if that's actually true. It just feels that way maybe.

And I personally wouldn't want to write a book... cause someone suggested that I do this with a script, to write it as a book, and then try to shop the script around. And I was like, "But I don't see it as a book." Do you know what I mean? And that sounds artsy and pretentious, but I wrote it as a script cause I don't see it as a book. And sort of vice versa where I could adapt something, and I would love to, but I wrote it as a book first because that's how it came to me. So yeah. I don't really know what I'm talking about anymore.

Sarah Enni:  No, no, this is just so funny, cause this is a conversation that my friends and I have all the time, so I'm just like, "Yup, yup." I think you're right, though. I think sometimes it's easy to look at a body of work, or the potential for a body of work, and say like, "Well, you should do this. You should do this X, Y, Z, I'm making a plan." And then you're like, "What? But it doesn't..."

We're creative people, we're sort of at the mercy of a little bit of woo-woo, right? Like, "Well, if it doesn't feel like a book, then it doesn't feel like a book," and you can't force it.

Camryn Garrett:  Yeah. I agree.

Sarah Enni:  So there's some boundaries there that are really frustrating to accept, but I recommend accepting them because it does free you up to do the stuff that does make sense. And that's what's gonna go.

Okay, well, as you go farther, if you're ever in LA, please let me know, cause I would love to meet and chat with you about all this stuff.

Camryn Garrett:  Yeah. I want to visit maybe one day it'll be normal and we can travel again.

Sarah Enni:  I know, one day. And I hope that school gets back to some kind of normal for you soon.

Camryn Garrett:  They haven't officially said, but we think we're going back in the fall. So I would love to be able to do my senior year in person. That would be nice.

Sarah Enni:  Has it been just like, you're watching movies by yourself?

Camryn Garrett:  Yeah. My friends are doing, what's it called? Like production classes where they actually make things. But the struggle is they aren't giving out equipment right now. So a lot of people are using their own equipment and I don't have any, and I don't want to like spend $10,000 on stuff. So, I've been waiting. Most of the classes I'm taking are film theory or, I'm taking a directing class and we're directing over zoom, which is kind of fun.

Sarah Enni:  Oh, that's interesting. I mean, it's cool for you to be learning that now, because I know people out here are adapting to that and learning a lot of virtual, how they can do things. A friend of mine the other day was directing someone in Japan for a commercial they were shooting. It was so cool.

Camryn Garrett:  Wow, I don't know, that's a lot. But it's actually really cool.

Sarah Enni:  He was like, "It's 9:30 PM. Got to go direct someone in Japan." I was like, "Whoa, this is intense."

Camryn Garrett:  It is intense, but it's cool. I mean, my professor keeps saying, "This is how it's moving in the industry." So I believe her.

Sarah Enni:  They're saving a lot of money doing it, and that's how you know it's gonna stay.

Camryn Garrett:  No, it makes sense.

Sarah Enni:  Oh my gosh, Camryn. This has been such a delightful conversation. Thank you for going fully off the rails with me and answering so many of my questions. I do just love to wrap up with advice. So I would really love to hear from you if you have advice for someone who is a young writer, say someone in high school, a teenager, who is very ready to take their writing seriously and pursue publication. What advice do you have for them?

Camryn Garrett:  I would say that, I don't want to sound discouraging, I think you should do what you feel is right. But I would remind you that publishing is a business. And once you decide to go the publishing route, it is like a job and it will shape the way that your writing goes. Your writing will become a job. And I don't think there's anything wrong with deciding that writing is just something you want to do for fun.

I would really sit and try to figure out whether you're okay with your writing, and your relationship to writing, changing, once you decide to go down the publishing road. I don't want to sound discouraging, but I've had that conversation with lots of authors. And your relationship to writing might not change, but for a lot of people it does, because you're depending on it for income or because people are gonna read it and review it. So I would just think really seriously about that.

Sarah Enni:  I think those are very wise words. It also can change your relationship to reading.

Camryn Garrett:  It's true. When my first book came out, I'm fine with my first book, I love it. But when it first came out, it didn't hit the list. And so I kept reading books that had hit the list and sort of being like, "Oh my god, what didn't I do right?" You know? And there are so many reasons why that isn't helpful.

It kind of sucks, I'm fine now, but it really was annoying at the time to not be able to read for pleasure. And I think some writers just never can. So I would think about that too. I sound so depressing. Writing is super great. It's a great job, but I would just remind you that it is a job and you have to be professional about certain things. And that can be something that's kind of hard to wrap your mind around, especially when you're younger and you've never been in an official job.

Sarah Enni:  I think that's wonderful advice. And not the way that we always phrase advice for young writers. That's part of why I wanted to ask is cause I'm all about celebrating authors, and really serious aspiring writers of all ages. Emphasizing young writers as wunderkind all the time is not healthy. And also I think we don't say enough, it's a very valid decision to say, "I want to write because it matters to me and I don't need the big five publishing to weigh in on that." You know? Cause that does come with a whole lot of other things.

Camryn Garrett:  My relationship to writing has changed and it's not bad or good, it just is. And when I was in high school, I would write much more than I do now. There are things you don't have to think about. Like the book I wrote that had no plot that was just like talking about your feelings. You can write whatever you want when you're just writing for yourself and you still get that rush and it's still fun. I don't think there's anything lesser about it if that's how people feel.

I just would think about that because I don't know how I would feel if my high school self would see how my writing has changed, if that makes sense. It's definitely not what I expected. And again, it's not bad or good. It's just not how I expected it, at all. And it did change.

Sarah Enni:  That's so interesting.

Camryn Garrett:  My publisher's gonna call me and be like, "Are you sad?"

Sarah Enni:  Well, no, I mean, what I also hear in what you're saying is you are literally studying storytelling. So not only are you getting the professional experience on the publishing side, but I think once you start to really dive into screenplays and learn about structure, and learn about how movies get made and don't get made, especially if you're trying to be serious about putting something together, then you're like, "This is too expensive. You can't shoot here." The realities of storytelling then weigh in, even on the idea generation side, and that's really a whole different thing.

Camryn Garrett:  I guess this isn't about books, but I produce my friend's shorts and now when I write short scripts, I'm always like, "Oh, should this be in a grocery store? It's gonna be such a pain to get a grocery store. Maybe it should be something else." I can't just, you know, do things [snaps fingers]. And even though I have professors who are like, "Just write and deal with it later." It's really hard to separate that. Like, "Will I be able to get all these extras in this party scene? Will I be able to cheat this?" You're always sort of thinking it.

Sarah Enni:  Yeah, "Do I want to shoot at night? Do I want to have a night shoot?"

Camryn Garrett:  Exactly, "Do I want to work with like kids on this shoot?" Or like, "Can I afford an underwater camera?"

Sarah Enni:  Right, and that's the tension of a creative life is like, "Do you write like you're fully free? Or do you bring in these realistic expectations?" Because those are helpful when you are then able to make the thing.

Camryn Garrett:  It's hard not to think about that when I'm writing now. I don't know if it's true for everyone, but before, I used to have the weirdest ideas and I would just act on them. And now I'm sort of like, "Oh, I don't really know how this would be marketed." And it might sound so boring, but I do think about that. And I think it's hard not to when you've gone through it with one book.

Sarah Enni:  I totally agree. Well, I have had so much fun talking to you today, Camryn. Thank you so much for giving me so much time.

Camryn Garrett:  Yeah, this is great.

Sarah Enni:  I so appreciate it. And hopefully we'll get to talk again in the future.

Camryn Garrett:  That would be great. Hopefully I can come to LA.

Sarah Enni:  Yes, I would love that.

Camryn Garrett:  Once we're free of the pandemic.

Sarah Enni:  So we can all go outside.

Thank you so much to Cameron. Follow her on Twitter @DancingofPens and Instagram @CameronGWrites, follow me on both @SarahEnni (Twitter and Instagram), and the show @FirstDraftPod (Twitter and Instagram).

Thank you to our sponsor, MelanininYA, a database comprised of Black YA authors, literary agents, editors, industry professionals, and influencers. A Resource for everyone involved in YA publishing, MelanininYA provides bi-monthly news roundups of book deals, cover reveals, and more. Check it out @melaninnya.com or follow on Instagram @MelanininY, or on Twitter @Melanin_YA.

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First Draft is produced by me, Sarah Enni. Today's episode was produced and sound designed by Callie Wright. The theme music is by Dan Bailey and the logo was designed by Collin Keith. Thanks to social media director, Jennifer Nkosi and transcriptionist-at-large Julie Anderson.

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