First Draft Episode #249: Opening the Mailbag with Justin A. Reynolds
APRIL 24, 2020
LISTEN TO THE EPISODE
This week is a new mailbag episode, where I--along with a very special guest--will answer listener questions! Joining me today is Justin A. Reynolds, author of Opposite of Always, whose new YA, Early Departures, will be out September 22!
This episode was sponsored by HIGHLAND 2, a better way to write, and by We Didn’t Ask For This, the newest novel by Adi Alsaid, out from Inkyard Press April 7 (listen to his First Draft interview here).
Sarah Enni: First Draft is sponsored by the newest novel from critically acclaimed young adult author Adi Alsaid, We Didn't Ask For This. Inspired by the Breakfast Club, this timely new novel brings climate change to the forefront as a group of international students turn their annual lock-in night into a platform to use their voice for environmental change. We Didn't Ask For This is a powerful look at not only how we treat the planet, but how we treat one another.
It has already earned star reviews from Publisher's Weekly and Kirkus Reviews and I know Adi, he is a fantastic writer and he's a world traveler. So his reflections on climate change come from personal experience and this feels like a very timely and important book. We Didn't Ask For This is out today from Inkyard press and is available wherever books and eBooks are sold.
First Draft is brought to you by Highland 2 a writing software created by John August, screenwriter and cohost of the Scriptnotes podcast. Also a guest on this very podcast. His episode is fantastic. And after talking to John and listening to hundreds of episodes of Scriptnotes, I heard him talk about developing this writing software and I decided to give it a try.
I just finished writing a first draft entirely in Highland 2 and I'm obsessed with it. And here's why I love Highland. It's so simple, but it's still really powerful. There's one navigation sidebar. And within that sidebar you have tons of different tools at your disposal. You can drag bits of text in there that you might want to come back to later. Or you can monitor your stats like word count and page count, or new words and new page count.
The main screen where you write is this simple, endless scroll of plain text. But with just a few keystrokes, you can add notes to yourself in-line without them showing up in the final automatically formatted version of your book. And you can export into many formats, including as a Word doc. Highland 2 is clean, beautiful, and organized, which is to say it didn't distract me, it just let me get in there and focus and write.
I highly encourage you to go check it out. You can find it @highland2.app. That's Highland and the number two.app. Or you can also find the link in this episode's shownotes. And if you do try Highland and enjoy it, let me know. I'm so interested. I was tracking my progress on my First Draft in the Instagram story feed. You can go in there and see, you know, my struggle [chuckles]. But Highland was the number one thing that people asked me. Everyone wanted to know what the software was that I was using and this is it. So go check it out.
Welcome to First Draft with me, Sarah Enni. This week is a new mailbag episode where I, along with a very special guest, will answer listener questions. Joining me today is Justin A. Reynolds author of Opposite of Always whose new YA, Early Departures, comes out September 22nd. Justin and I talk about how we're living and working in the Coronavirus era, our approach to authentic teen dialogue, how book covers and designs come about, and what to do with ideas that just won't go away.
And I admit to one time I walked out of a movie, it's book related I swear, but I was in something of a high dander about it --high dander, that's how I talk --Dame Maggie Smith over here. Everything Justin and I talk about in today's episode can be found in the shownotes.
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If you'd like to donate to First Draft either on a one-time or monthly basis, simply go to paypal.me/firstdraftpod.
And I hope you're all tuning in to Track Changes. Track Changes is the podcast spinoff series to First Draft. You can find it in this very feed, so you don't have to go anywhere special. And it's basically covering Publishing 101, how do books get traditionally published in the U S going from your laptop to a bookshelf? It's very informative.
You can find it on the website, you can find it in this podcast feed. The first episode is already out, it's a Publishing 101 overview. The next episode, on Thursday, April 30th, deals with agents. So you're not gonna want to miss that one.
Okay. Now please sit back, relax, and enjoy my conversation with Justin A. Reynolds.
Sarah Enni: I'm so excited to chat with you today Justin. How are you?
Justin Reynolds: I'm doing great. How about yourself?
Sarah Enni: Doing pretty good. Pretty good. Just me and the cat. So we're making it work. How are you doing over there?
Justin Reynolds: Doing well. I had like a moment last week where I kinda reached my peak frustration level. But I think all in all, like this week I've mostly bounced back. And I think all in all, I mean, considering that we're very much in uncharted waters, I think everyone I've talked to has had a moment where they kind of reached critical mass. The good thing is that obviously everyone can relate. So it's not like this thing where people are like, "Oh, I'm so sorry you're going through that." It's like, "Oh, we're all going through this together."
Sarah Enni: It's been funny too, like in the group chat, and then all over emails, or zooming with everybody, it feels like everybody's reaching that point at different times and in different ways. So sometimes you're in the group chat you're like, "Oh, so-and-so is having a tough day today." Like, "This is their day today. It's their turn."
Justin Reynolds: No, for sure. Exactly. I mean, yeah, definitely different times, which I guess is probably ideal, so you can support each other and not have like infinite drama at the same time. But yeah, it's interesting, you could definitely feel the cycle kind of going through. And I mean, you know, they're talking about opening things up and that's a whole other set of issues with that.
I think it's weird to kind of stop on a literal dime in terms of our lives. I was on vacation in Florida hanging out and then all of a sudden it's like, "Hey, when you come back, we basically gotta just stay inside." Like, "Oh, okay. Cool." So it's just a weird thing. I mean everyone has their story but for it to happen so quickly, so swiftly, and to be just so all encompassing, I think, is the wild part of it.
Sarah Enni: It's so wild. I mean in LA it's very interesting to be like, it is so clear out right now. And the air quality is out of control. So I'm walking around like, "Oh, this is pretty good!" [Laughs]
Justin Reynolds: I know. I know. It's weird. And I'm so much more appreciative of like every sunny day [laughs]. I mean, I have always been a person very much dependent on like vitamin D, but all the more so. And it's so weird, I think I talked about this on Twitter like a bit ago. I want nothing more than just to have the ability to make a meaningless run to Target, like... stat. Please.
Also, I didn't realize how many times a week I probably went to Target but like no real purpose. And I came out with like one thing that I really didn't probably even need. But I also realized I do a lot of thinking at Target, and I'll do a lot of my random check-ins with friends cause I like to walk around while I talk, or drive when I'm talking.
So I'll just be walking around the store. I'm that annoying person walking around the store. But I don't have the Bluetooth. I'm not the Bluetooth guy who's still wearing Bluetooth, so you're like, "Are you talking to me?" And they're like, "No. Like, obviously... the Bluetooth." So, that's the part that I miss. Just the access and the ability to go and move as we please. That's the part that I guess you kind of take for granted.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Well you're kind of teeing me up cause I was gonna ask you to share what is it like having to work from home. Is that what you usually do? Or what's going on with that?
Justin Reynolds: So I am not a person who works from home very easily, in general, pre-pandemic. I sometimes struggle with organization. It's a thing that doesn't come natural to me because in my mind, and maybe it's not entirely true, I'm actually sorting that out now. In my mind I've always thought like, "Oh, the creativity feels stifled when I try to organize myself into like hour boxes." Like, "Okay, for this two hours I'm gonna work."
That works great for some people. They're like, "Okay, I'm gonna work two hours. And the output is, the output." For me it's always been kind of weird to do that because oftentimes, like at the tail end of a session, if I schedule that time, I'm like, "Then I'm on fire." So it's a weird mix. So I have always kind of made myself write every day, but not necessarily on a strict schedule.
And I had more of a the luxury of personal time, pre-pandemic. And now that we're dealing with that, you'd think you'd have more time to sort those things out, but because I don't really work well from home creatively, and there's so many distractions at home, I find myself actually struggling a little bit more than I think some people probably are.
Some people are like, "Oh, all of a sudden we have this windfall of time." And I think for me it's kind of the opposite. I felt like I lost time. And so it's kinda weird. I think the other thing is that for me, I have to approach writing like a job. So I have to get up, take a shower, get dressed like I'm going to the office, to my actual office. And I work there like office hours. And I'm still working throughout the day. But I gotta treat it like that because that's the way that I accomplish the most.
So like getting up and walking down to my living room, it doesn't have the same feeling. My brain is like, "What are you doing?" Like, "Oh look at those dishes over there." Or like, "Let's pay some bills." I don't know. So it's a weird thing. What about you? Are you finding like your groove with extra quote-unquote time, or what?
Sarah Enni: I mean, speaking of, my heart goes out to every parent out there that has school-aged kids who is doing homeschooling, cause talk about losing time. I think parents with school-aged kids are having a totally different experience than anybody else. And it's a lot and my heart goes out to them. I do feel fortunate that I really only have to worry about myself and my cat.
But even when this started, I was in the middle of launching Track Changes and I'm not kidding, working like twelve hour days on that. And so in some ways I had already canceled everything and when this happened, I'm not trying to be glib about this at all, but I was like, "Okay, I'll just work on this." Like, "I can focus on my podcast stuff." And worked on that day and night.
And now I need to start working on my book and I haven't figured out what that's gonna look like. I moved my desk into my living room so I can look outside. I heard there's a coffee shop track on Spotify. I'm gonna go find that and maybe crank up the speakers and just fake it. So we'll see. That's like the end of this week is when I'm really starting. So I will let you know how that goes.
Justin Reynolds: Yeah, it's a weird adjustment time. But I think, kinda like we were saying before we started recording, is that I guess if there's any kind of comfort, is that you don't really have to explain the feelings that you're experiencing right now. Everyone is well aware of those feelings, if not battling them themselves.
And so I guess now more than ever, I think the other part of it is that even though, I mean, I live in Ohio and there's a couple of writers here, but we're not able to get together often. And so a lot of times I feel isolated except for the online community. And so it was a weird time. Now everyone's kinda like stuck at home. It kind of rallied this community, I think, in an awesome way. And so that's been kind of kind of encouraging, I guess.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, I agree. It's been really cool to see. And like Zoom and the fact that ...it just is leveling in some way. It feels like everybody's on the same level. And so we're all like, "Okay, let's just talk cause we all need that."
Okay, I have some really great questions that came in over Instagram and a few from the voicemail, which is great. Okay, let's see, where do I want to start? Let's start with... this is a question from Julia.
Listener Question: Hi Sarah. My name is Julia and I would love to hear about how the decisions get made for how your book looks visually. Is that something that you have a lot of say over as an author, what your cover's going to look like? And any additional visual details in the book? Or is that something that your publisher mainly has control over? I really loved the photos in Tell Me Everything with Ivy and with the paint brushes. I thought that was a really special touch that added a lot to the book. And I would love to hear about how that came about. Thanks.
Sarah Enni: Do you have a copy of your book with you? Cause we are on video and we can share it.
Justin Reynolds: I do have a copy of my book.
Sarah Enni: Do I have mine? I'm going to go grab a copy of mine.
Justin Reynolds: I've just gotten this edition, this is the... the paperback just came out. So, yeah.
Sarah Enni: Oh, paperback, look at that! It's so nice. Oh, I love a paperback.
Justin Reynolds: I love the paperback. Oh, I love it. And I've always been a big fan of your cover since it came out.
Sarah Enni: Thanks. Oh my god, my designer, this is the last book she designed before she moved to Colorado to do freelance and to like teach yoga. So she could've just been like, "Ugh, I'm on my way out." But instead she totally did a mic drop and just crushed it.
Justin Reynolds: No. She killed it. She did.
Sarah Enni: I was so happy. And actually this came out, since it's with Scholastic, it came out in paperback and hardcover at the same time.
Justin Reynolds: Oh yes, yes. The trade and book fairs.
Sarah Enni: Because the books in fairs is all paperback, which was really cool to see that. But anyway, I think what we both are saying is we have nothing to do with how they look.
Justin Reynolds: So I'll say this, it's a weird thing, I love my cover. And Stephanie Singleton did the cover and she's awesome. You can check out her Instagram, it's incredible. But she designed the cover, and I will say this, my publisher - shout out to Harper and to Katherine Tegen Books - they asked for my insight and my input into what was really important to me. And also the things that I absolutely didn't want.
And you know, people ask that kind of stuff all the time and, of course, they're not necessarily beholden to follow through on those things. But we were fortunate that they really took it to heart. And I couldn't have been more excited about what they delivered. And it's not always the case. And everyone told me that it probably wouldn't be that way.
Usually, most authors that I know including my friends, don't get a lot of input. You kind of get what you get because that's more of a marketing and sales thing. And you know, most writers aren't marketers or salespeople. That's not our skillset necessarily. And so, knowing the market, you kind of trust that they know how to cover that end.
And so I was very happy though that they took my input seriously. And it's like weird now and you probably have the same experience. Like once you get the cover and you're happy with it, you almost can't imagine it being anything else, you know? That's the thing that kind of like now dresses the book. Right? Like it's the representation of the book.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. It's true. I would not even know where to begin with re-imagining how it looks in my head even.
Justin Reynolds: Same, same.
Sarah Enni: So I'm really glad that you were consulted, that you got to say what you liked and didn't like. You're right though that publishers are a business and they hire marketing and design professionals. So that's who is in charge of what your book looks like, just to Julia who asked this question. They take it and run. My experience was I did not hear anything about my cover. And I was in the background being like, "Oh, I don't know! What's going on?"
Sarah Enni: So I made a Pinterest board and sent it to my editor, Amanda Maciell who is amazing. And she in response to that was like, "Oh, um, we're like doing that without you." [Both laugh] She's like, "We're pretty far along already." So she sent me some pictures but they were totally hooking me up. And they actually did a photo shoot for this cover and they were doing a bunch of really, really cool stuff. But she kind of looped me in and I was trailing behind like keeping up with what they were doing.
But in the end I was super, super happy with it. So that was completely fine. And Nina Goffi (designer of Tell Me Everything), I should say, is the name of the designer of the book and she did a great job.
Justin Reynolds: That's even awesome because, so the model on the book, they did that for the book?
Sarah Enni: Yeah.
Justin Reynolds: That's awesome too!
Sarah Enni: I know. My grandma was like, "Is that you?" [Laughs out loud]!
Justin Reynolds: No, but it's awesome because like so many times, a lot of times, they end up using licensed art. And so it's cool, and even that is awesome that they shot that for your cover.
Sarah Enni: It's huge. And for anyone that's not familiar with the process, there's a lot of different ways you can do a cover. But yeah, you're right. When you find out that they have commissioned a photo shoot, that's spending money, and that's a real investment in what the book cover looks like. So when I found out they were doing that, I was like, "Great, do whatever you're gonna do." And the inside, there's like some text messages in your book and stuff right?
Justin Reynolds: Yeah, yeah. There's text messages. But you know what? Let me show a different version. Hold on one second. I'll be right back.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. And while you're there, I'm gonna flip to my text messages cause this actually was a point of contention. And for you listening on the podcast, my apologies. We are talking about a visual thing, but during copy edits that was a big deal for me. I was like, "These texts don't look right." And I had a bunch of emojis and they were like, "You can't be using these emojis." And I was kind of getting frustrated, which isn't fair, cause book designers have a lot of work to do, but I was like, "God just look at your phone guys! Come on!" There's no one agreed upon way to present them in books.
Justin Reynolds: Nope, nope. It's so weird because I think part of it is that, publishing moves so slow, right? We all know that. We talk about that all the time. Like it's hurry up and wait. And so the things that we kind of take for granted, like society, text messaging is the predominant form of communication. So you would think, because in any business for the most part, there's a standard, right? Like, "This is how it's done. This is how it looks across the board so that it's uniform." And that once you have a standard, once you see that thing, no matter where it's at, you recognize, "Okay, that's what this is supposed to be." Right?
I think in like book printing, there is a beauty to having freedom to compose the text the way that you want, in a way that works best for your material. But at the same time you would think that there would be like, for emojis, like an easier way. Like, "Yo, this is a standard emoji. I'm not making up emojis." I actually went online and found the exact descriptions of each emoji like, "Winking at dah, dah, dah, dah." And I put those like in the text like, "This is what I'm asking for." Like not just some made up weird winking person. [Laughs]
Sarah Enni: But you know why? Because they're trademarked. So you can't use them.
Justin Reynolds: I know! I know, they can't use the exact ones, right? I'm trying to find, I have some emojis. So they did a pretty cool job. They also asked me if I wanted it to be... to actually have the emoji, or if I wanted to put like in Asterisk on either side, like winking, winking. Like it was kind of a weird. But I'm thankful that didn't happen. I was like, "No, thank you." Uh, let me see if I can get that... if it's not gonna click. Okay. Kinda hmmmm [some rustling in the background].
Sarah Enni: It's a little hard to see. Let's see. I think you have to block your face entirely.
Justin Reynolds: Oh yeah, here we go. Here we go.
Sarah Enni: Oh yeah! I can see.
Justin Reynolds: So that's like a winking emoji. But what was kinda cool was that like the Czech version of this thing, they did like really cool graphics throughout.
Sarah Enni: Ah! Ooh!
Justin Reynolds: They did a clock, they did like a ticket. So I won't go too far off the topic, but you and I talked before about making up bands and then like being so dedicated. So I made up the band Mighty Moe, and so they have all kinds of memorabilia and they're gonna appear in everything that I ever write [chuckles].
Sarah Enni: Oh, I love it!
Justin Reynolds: So they put in like a ticket, and a poster for them. So I think it's kind of a cool, just like a cool tongue-in-cheek wink at yourself, I guess.
Sarah Enni: I love it. Yeah, the Easter eggs! I love them.
Justin Reynolds: Yeah, little Easter eggs.
Sarah Enni: Well, and you know what I think is true for both of what we're talking about, is I could tell that Nina Goffi read my book when she designed it. I looked at it and I was like, "Yeah, absolutely. This is the care and thought of someone who really read it." Designers don't have time to read every book.
Justin Reynolds: That's so true, that's so true.
Sarah Enni: That's just impossible at a big five publishing house. But there's little details that really let you know like, "Yeah, this is a person that connected with my book."
Justin Reynolds: That's true. And I should also say that the reason why this also came together, so Stephanie Singleton does not work for Harper. She's a freelance artist. But Erin Fitzsimmons at Harper is the one who found her and also a lot of it is her creative energy that directed the final product. So I'm thankful that they both really were invested. And Erin championed the book even from the art side of things, as the art director on the project. And so it translated into an awesome cover.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. That's so great. Another question that we got that I think is perfect for you and I to talk about, cause we both write contemporary young adult fiction, is someone was asking for tips on writing teen dialogue.
Justin Reynolds: Hmm.
Sarah Enni: Spoiler to the listener -- neither of us are teenagers any more.
[Both laughing]
Justin Reynolds: Speak for yourself! I just had my 17th birthday.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, happy Bar Mitzvah.
Justin Reynolds: Thanks. Appreciate that. Appreciate that. Okay, so first of all, there's actually gonna be like a panel that I was asked to do for a book conference later this year about this, about writing for teens. What's interesting about teen voices, it just depends on who you ask. Let's be honest, there's gonna be some teens who read it and be like, "That's not how teens talk." Right?
Because what you're really talking about, what you're really saying when you're trying to kind of inhabit a group of people that you don't necessarily belong to any anymore, is you're saying like, "Here's a snapshot of how this subset of people talk." Right?
And you want it to of course, mimic the real world. So we're using snatches of dialogue. And you're hearing and listening to people talk. I hear teens talk all the time and so I'm listening to that, even within my own family. And so I think there is some authenticity to it and they'll be like, "Oh yeah, that's exactly how we sound." But then there's gonna be some teens who live across town who are like, "Who you been talking to?"
But that also is true of any group, right? There's some people who would say like, "Oh, a bank teller would never talk that way." Or, "A person who works at Target would never talk that way." So there's always gonna be people who that language does not speak to directly, I think. But I think the number one thing is, if you're going into a subject and you're trying to honor the material and you're honoring the subject, and you have good intentions, and you're trying to like really get it right to the best of your ability, then I think that's all you can do.
It's not gonna speak to everyone, but that's what art is. Art doesn't speak to everyone in the same way. But on the flip side of that, there's gonna be a group of people who are like, "Wow, you really got it. It spoke to me." And I think that's the part you're looking for.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, and to your point exactly, this is one of those ways in which people talk about teenagers in ways that they don't talk about anybody else. We're like, "Can you imagine someone being like, how do you write like a thirty-something?"
Justin Reynolds: [Laughs] Right? No, exactly. I have no idea what that sounds like. Right.
Sarah Enni: Yeah like, "What do you even mean?" So, "talk like a teenager" is just kind of an absurd thing anyway. So as long as you accept that, then I think you feel free to just write what sounds authentic to you. And that's what the reader's gonna respond to, like you're saying. I think even if someone, even if a teenager who doesn't speak the way my character's speak, will resonate with the fact that it sounds authentic to me.
And they might not be interested in my book, but can you imagine how insulting it would be if I was trying to use slang I wasn't familiar with or talk about things that I don't engage with? Like that's just embarrassing. So instead of doing that, I'm gonna do the best I can to speak like me and my friends. And I just kind of assume that me and my friends probably talk to each other pretty similarly to how we did when we were teenagers and we always will.
Justin Reynolds: Yeah, no, I agree. I think that's a definite benchmark is, exactly, the way that I would talk to my friends or that I hear my friends talk, is the same way we've been talking for, I'm not gonna say how many years, but long enough, long enough. It hasn't changed very much.
Sarah Enni: Two of my best friends I've had since I was sixteen, so you go back to that group thread and you're like, "Yeah, yeah. This is it." Just giving each other shit the same way for an undisclosed period of time.
Justin Reynolds: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Sarah Enni: And then, I like to, as just a really explicit answer to this question, I don't like to use a ton of slang, but I will use [pauses] I kind of am of the school of like it's heightened dialogue. You're not gonna include as much "ums" or "likes" or "rights" or "hums" as normal people do in actual spoken language. You're gonna clean it up. But I kind of hear it when I'm writing it and I do throw in some likes and there's a lot of exaggeration. And using like unusual words almost in the way that you would use slang. I'm having trouble kind of explaining exactly what it is. But it's almost like, Gilmore Girls isn't how anybody talks, but it's consistent in that world, and so people accept it. So that's kind of what I use as a metric.
Justin Reynolds: No, I love that. I think that is a great way to approach it. I also kind of subscribe to that same approach. Here's what I'll say, I don't read reviews and whatnot for the most part, but I have heard people say like, "Oh, that's not authentic teen dialogue." And I guess sometimes young people have said that. But most of the feedback I've gotten, I've been fortunate to talk to a lot of kids at schools across the country. And no one has ever said, "This dialogue doesn't seem authentic."
Now they could be thinking it, but no one's ever said that. They've given me other critiques for sure. That hasn't been one. But usually who's saying that are adults. And they're saying, because I'm using heightened language or I'm using words that they may not be using in their normal vocabulary, they're assuming that teenagers are incapable of doing that. Or would not understand or relate to that material. And that's where I take offense. That's not the teenagers that I'm speaking to.
And the thing is, and this could be like a ten hour episode, but the thing that's interesting is that you talk to kids and they are very capable of speaking slang, and speaking the slang of the day, of the hour even, right? But then also slipping into this heightened language. And so I think every generation, and especially the generation coming up now, it's like, "Why can't we have it all?"
There's a blending and a marriage of language and culture. And so I don't think that they would say, "This is how teens speak, or teens would never speak this way." I think there's a freedom that exists. And we live in an age where creativity and stepping outside of the box is very, very much encouraged. And I think that's a thing of beauty.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. I could not agree more with you and what's coming to mind for me is, and I'll just speak for myself, but in high school there was still a monoculture. There was still some semblance of a monoculture. Like I watched TRL, I watched the final episode of Seinfeld, Friends was the show, before TiVo even. And now everything is so different. There's something for everybody and there is not one TV show about six white people living in an unreasonable loft in New York, to be like, "This is what's normal." And we're all supposed to think that's normal. I'm glad that's not the case anymore.
Justin Reynolds: Yeah, yeah. No, it's so interesting. It's one of those things where like as the culture has evolved. Honestly, I'm so grateful that we get to write for young people because they're doing so much heavy lifting in society. Unfortunately, that's the case, I guess I should say. Unfortunately they have to do that because our generation, previous generations, didn't move the needle quite far enough. And so people are coming up now, but they're making light work of it almost, like you're seeing this explosion.
And some of it is the internet and the ability to shrink the world down a little bit, where like, "We're not bound by physical boundaries." Like people over in China can be listening to the same song that I'm listening to right now and loving it just as much. Right? We have that access, which is amazing. The world has shrunk considerably.
And what that has done is it's allowed there to be a blend and where we don't expect you to be one thing, we don't expect that to happen. If anything, we're pushing you to be as many things as you can. And then to surround yourself with those people who are trying to expand their own emotional and mental boundaries, which is awesome.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. And given all that, there is no wrong way to talk about it.
Justin Reynolds: No. No, no.
Sarah Enni: So I like that. I think teen dialogue is also, to me that's a red flag. That's not what you should be worried about. As a writer, you look for stuff to put your anxiety on and it's like, "I'm gonna just tell you, don't worry about it. Just write your book."
Justin Reynolds: What people want to know is, they just want to know does the dialogue move and sing and advance the plot. They're not necessarily worried about specific word choice the way we might worry about those things.
Sarah Enni: Yes. I totally agree. Let's see, another question. This came in over voicemail. This is an interesting one. I'm interested to hear what you think about this.
Listener Question: What to do with the persistent idea that keeps coming back to you. How do you distance yourself from it or let it go if it's not working for you?
Sarah Enni: I kind of wish I could ask for more clarity on what kind of an issue that this listener's having.
Justin Reynolds: I'm gonna just take one pathway, and I apologize to the questioner if this is not the pathway you wanted. But I'll say that the way I hear that question is, when there's an idea for a story that seems to be somewhat insistent, but when you've tried to put it together, it doesn't seem to be coming together. Like what do you do with that?
And what I'll say is that I just let it sit and marinade more because to me, it's just not quite ready to make that. There's something about that idea. There's a morsel there that is interesting to you and that your brain knows, "Hey, this is something." But for whatever reason, you just don't have enough pieces to make that thing move. You have like the caboose of the train, but you don't have the engine. And so, it's something. It's still an important, part, but you need something to drive you to completion.
And so I think that whenever I've had that, we all do, every writer has notebooks. You're jotting down ideas and little morsels and tidbits of things that sometimes I forget that I even wrote that thing, right? And it's like I come back five years later and I'm like, "Oh, that's a cool thing." And now maybe my life experience has changed and I'm more equipped to talk about that thing, or I've seen more, or the world has changed in this way in which this is more relevant and now the story just kind of comes together on its own.
But whenever we have those things where you're kinda stuttering in your progress, but we keep trying to plod ahead. And you're just frustrating yourself and you're pouring all this time and energy into something that you're not able to move along. I think there's a lot of reasons why that could be happening, but I think what you should take from that is it's just not time for that thing. And it's not a bad thing. And it could be you need a couple of days, you need a couple of weeks to sit with it a little bit more. You need a couple months.
The other part of it could be is if you already are working with an idea [chuckles], the thing that comes along is like you're always loving the shiny new idea and you're like, "Oh, I want to do that! I want to do that!" But that's not because the idea is necessarily amazing, it might be good, but it's not necessarily amazing. It's just that your brain is like, "I'm so tired of dealing with this thing." That thing could even be going okay, but you're like tired of editing it. You're tired of revising it. You're tired of living with that story.
And so your brain is like, "Let's just go over here and... look at this cool thing! Ooh! Shiny, glass!" You know? And so I think that's the other part of it, is trying to decide.... I guess the question is like, "When do you know how to pursue an idea, and when not to?" And for me, if I don't think it has enough juice to sustain my own interest, I don't.
It could be a great idea and Sarah might be like, "Oh!" We might both get the same idea and it just takes off with her. And for me it's a good idea, but it's just like, "I don't know what to do with this." It has to have the juice and the fire for you to be able to push through, because writing a novel is a grind. It's a grind.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. And to your point, I think you, as a person, get a little bit more familiar with that instinct over time. I think when you're just starting out, you go down a bunch of different paths that don't work out. And then over time you're like, "Oh, I remember this feeling." Cause it's the one that's not gonna work out so I can avoid it. But you waste a lot of time at the beginning, you just do.
I was doing, over zoom with my cousin's kids, they're seven and ten. So I was like, "I can hang out with them for an hour over Zoom and we'll write stories together and I'll give my cousin a break." And I was like, "Write down your ideas. Here's a graph of it. Let's do all this stuff." And they were like, "Oh, well should I go on the other side? We're gonna waste paper." And I was like, "I'm gonna tell you something... you're gonna waste a lot of paper if you wanna write a book." Let's just be real about it.
[Both laughing].
Justin Reynolds: So real. Oh my god, yes. You are. You can't be precious.
Sarah Enni: Let's start a new page. You just gotta do it. Yeah. And I think if you're having this nagging feeling and you just need to run around with something for awhile and just give yourself a break for something else, open a Google doc and just write out a chapter, write it as a fan fiction and put it up on AO3. You can engage with stuff and see what it feels like. But I think yeah, your point is well taken. Find the ideas that really have enough and try your hardest to focus on those.
Justin Reynolds: Yeah. No, I think that's a good idea too, just to channel that, like you said. Give yourself permission to follow that thread for a moment.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Yeah. And then, like you said, five years later you might find it and be like, "Hey, now I actually have something for that." And actually you kind of led me to this other great question we got. "How do you deal with finding similar, already published books, while you're still in the writing process?" So books similar to what you're writing or what you want to write.
Justin Reynolds: That's a good question. Here's what I'll say, and this sounds cheesy, but most of my answers sound cheesy when I start talking about writing process and like inspiration and all that good stuff. Is that everything's already been written about. Unless you're some astrophysicist and you're trying to explain some natural occurring phenomenon that is just happening for the first time in a gazillion years. Like we've been there, done that. And someone's probably done that thing too.
And so if you're just looking for the original idea, then you're putting too much stock in the idea. The idea has to be there, but it's just the jumping off part, right? You're trying to create an entire world. And so if we have fifteen people in a room and we've given them the same prompt to write from, we're gonna have fifteen different styles, fifteen different voices, fifteen different points of view, right?
No one's gonna take that story exactly the same way even though we had the same launch period. So I don't get too bogged down by other comps or stories that are similar to the thing that I'm trying to do. For one thing, the stories that came before me influenced me to even get to this thing anyway, right? Maybe I read something that was kind of similar and it propelled me toward exploring this other avenue of the same kind of story.
And so we can't help what's happening. And if you're gonna only base what you're writing on what appears to not be out right now, you're gonna just drive yourself crazy. First of all, there's hundreds of books being published every week, and so you're gonna drive yourself crazy. And also, editors who are seeking material don't care necessarily if they have that vampire book already. If you're vampire book is heads-and-shoulders above the other vampire book they have, trust me, they still want that one. They want yours.
If you've done something with that same topic that just blows everyone out of the water, or your voice is so unique and original, you're doing something that they haven't seen, or that they've been sorely lacking in their catalog, they're gonna be like, "Yo I want that thing." It doesn't matter. Like the whole, "There's only room for one." We talk about that across a lot of different platforms, but even in that, like there's more than room.
That's why there's genre, right? Romcom and thriller and mystery, cause there's room for the same thing to be done but the way that you stick out is by writing the way that only you can. And I think that's the thing, is learning to trust and put value in your own voice and say that, "I am enough. It doesn't matter what someone else is doing over here. What I'm doing is uniquely me." And that's good.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Yeah. My analogy I like to use for this particular insecurity that a lot of writers have, cause this is a really common thing that people talk about, is the coffee filter. So the makeup of your life, your background, your family, your lived experiences, the time that you live, the age that you are, the city you live in, it is irreplicable. It is completely unique to you. It has never and will never exist again.
So that is the coffee filter. We could all be grinding the same beans, and in some cases we are right? Because there's only so much story, as you said. But it's all gotta filter through your filter. So you could try to write the next Steinbeck, or you could try to go word-by-word for John Green, or something, right? But you couldn't do it. It is impossible for you not to be yourself.
So I think what we're both saying is you must lean into that if you want to be a creator and have a unique voice. If you want to be a creator, you have to embrace your unique voice. Because you have one, inevitably. That is what you have to sort of work on. And then, to your point, you have to embrace that step one. And step two, then you just have to do that as well as you can. You have to write a really good book. To get a book published, you have to write a really good book. And that takes a lot of time and that's where you can actually put your effort because you can change quality. You kind of can't change your voice. Your voice is your voice.
That being said, I do have one anecdote that I'm going to say about that. I have a book that I want to write. I'm like, "How detailed should I...?" Okay. So I have a book that I want to write...
Justin Reynolds: Give us some detail so I can write it down [laughs]. Like, "Wait! So, what happens next?"
Sarah Enni: I want the Justin version of it. We'll come out at the same time and try to prove if we're correct or not.
[Both laughing].
Sarah Enni: It's a book that's been in my back pocket since 2013. I've already written like three drafts of it. And it's just this inevitable thing, I'll write it someday. But then Oceans 8 came out.
Justin Reynolds: Mmm.
Sarah Enni: And I was sitting in the movie theater watching this movie, I was by myself cause I was traveling for work and I was watching this movie and I was like [indrawn breath], "It's too much." I was like, "There's some of the same clothes. There's some of the same..." There was just stuff in there that was happening that I was getting so upset that I got up and left because I was like, "My book is not gonna be Oceans 8. I am looking for it when it's not really there. But I also need to do myself the kindness of leaving right now and just not engaging with this."
Justin Reynolds: Yes. I think like, here's the thing about that, it's so interesting because before I wrote Opposite of Always, I had written I think three full novels prior to Opposite of Always, and then a whole bunch of partials.
Sarah Enni: That's so interesting, just really quick, I had just heard from another writer that the average is that you publish your fourth novel.
Justin Reynolds: Oh, is it really? Oh, that's interesting? And honestly, the three novels prior were like, so spread out. I always wrote something and then I went through a whole bunch of growing and personal stuff. And I would just be writing like little things, short stories and small things, poems. And then all of a sudden I hit another period and I'm like, "Let me take another crack at that.
So the first novel I ever completed I think I was twenty, and I'm not twenty now. So it was a while ago. And so it's kind of like weird the way they spaced out. But yeah, all that to say, it's such an interesting thing, the novel two novels before Opposite, I had read something that spoke to me so profoundly, that I thought everything I was doing was almost sounding like that thing. Like I couldn't get out of it for some reason. It was just like, "I love it so much."
And then sometimes I was like, "Well I think I could do this thing and make it a little bit different and whatever." And what I realized, long story short, is that that project didn't go anywhere, it wasn't completed, because I was not being my authentic self. The idea is fine. Like, we have talking dog stories and bank heist stories and meet cute stories like galore, galore. Right? But we're still drawn to those stories because this person over here told the story in a way that spoke to us and resonated with us in a way that either we needed it in that moment, that we hadn't heard it before, they introduced some type of diversity to it. There's so many different ways to make the story your own thing.
It's hard enough to write a story without worrying about what the market is doing. And that's why I always say too, in addition to not caring about if your story sounds similar to someone else's, I also don't care if necessarily the market isn't buying that type of story. Your agent might care [laughs], they might care.
But it's so hard to write something for 80,000, 100,000 words, I gotta write something that I'm going to be able to complete and that means something to me, first and foremost. And so just focus on that. Like don't even worry about the outside noise. That's what marketing's for and publicity is for, let them find some weird angle to promote your book. But you just gotta do the job, like you said, of writing a good book. And that's the only thing that you have to worry about really is write a good book.
Sarah Enni: I totally agree. And it's the only thing you can control. And the sooner you sort of embrace that, the fewer headaches that you'll give yourself. Cause that's it! We only get the book. Only the words. We don't even decide what font they show up in.
Justin Reynolds: Let me ask you a question to kind of go off of that. When you are writing something, some people gravitate toward things that are similar to what they're writing, and they like want to read those other things. And some people are like, "I gotta stay as far away from that as possible because I don't want that to like, through osmosis, end up in my own thing." Or like you said with Oceans 8 like, "I don't want that feeling of competition to be present as I'm working." What's your approach on that?
Sarah Enni: That is a really a good question. I think I have discovered that I very much want to be reading something different. When I'm actively drafting, I'm often reading only nonfiction and listening to a lot of podcasts and totally other opposite stuff. And it's honestly because, especially I'm right now about to start revisions and, oh my god, your brain is such a hypercritical, cruel mean space when you're in that headspace.
I was reading a friend's book and I was like, "This is a good book and I'm being really mean in my head about it and I need to put this book down and come back to fiction later because I'm too hypercritical." And that was it with Oceans 8, I was like, "I hate this movie!" And it was like, "No, you don't hate this movie. You are having a lot of feelings about this movie and that's not this movie's fault." You know. How about you?
Justin Reynolds: No. Same. I can't. If I'm writing something, even like a scene, if I'm writing some kind of romantic comedy type scene, I don't want to be reading romantic comedy. Because for me, so much of it is that, even going back to the previous question about dialogue, there's very much a musicality to the way that I write. And so it's a song and rhythm and a certain cadence that each book has, and each character has. And so I don't want any kind of... like you can't play two songs at once, right? So I don't want to have that music playing while I'm trying to compose this original piece.
And so I usually do the same thing as you. I always have to be reading, because I think that is very much how I refill my personal tank. But yeah, I go either to a different genre entirely, or a lot of times I'll end up my trying to read things that I wouldn't have been drawn toward that my friends have been pushing me to read. I'm like, "Oh, that's not really the thing that I normally like, but they love it. Everyone loves that thing. I'll go do that."
Because one, it's allowing me to explore a different place than I normally would go to. But also it's gonna be so much different than what I'm working on, that there's no competition there and I can still get the fortification that I need from letting my eyes scan the page and taking that in. And podcasts are like my lifeline. I love podcasts and they help with that too, to get that out of your brain and be able to focus on whatever you're creating.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Do you ever listen to fiction podcasts or are you listening to the nonfiction?
Justin Reynolds: So I definitely listen to First Draft.
Sarah Enni: Thanks! Oh my gosh.
Justin Reynolds: Of course. I listen to both. I listen to both. So here's what I'll say. I like First Draft and this is not my plugging you, I like First Draft because it's so much about the process and about the background of a person that led them to a place where they had the ability to write that story, right? Where everything kind of converges and then the story felt inevitable in this way. And then the catalyst behind the conclusion of that story.
And so that's what I appreciate. And so there are certain podcasts that I like that are really just about the impetus to create or about the moment where things came together and you realized like, "This project is different than the other projects I've started and not been able to complete." Like, "This thing is it." And there's a moment where you feel that.
So those are the things that I'm looking for. Inspirational podcasts that are talking about the grind and the hustle of creativity. Cause we always like to feel like the spirit moving in out of us. But it very much is also an actual process and like a science behind it. There's a lot of stuff that happens to give you that creative juice. So I try to fill that in, mainly with nonfiction podcasts so that it kinda reinforces like, "I'm doing something worthwhile. It's worth the effort and the exhaustion and the self doubt. And that I'm also not the only one that has those feelings and I can push through."
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Well first of all, thank you so much. That's very sweet to hear. And it's funny, I hear that probably the most from listeners that they listened to First Draft and they feel like they want to go write. That it makes them feel like they're in it with other people. And that's completely just the best takeaway. If the podcast can serve that for people, then it makes me so happy. And it's funny cause sometimes I feel like on the podcast all we do is talk about how hard this is. It's like, "This sucks! Why do we do this?" But just hearing other people say that sometimes you're like, "Oh, okay, it's not just me."
Justin Reynolds: Yes, yes, for sure. I think that writing is so much about isolation that I think anytime you get a chance to step out of your own head and have a community of people, even if it's just like a recorded voice saying, "Hey, you're not alone. We're here with you. We've been there, we are there." Then I think that's an awesome thing.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Yeah. Well I love that. Oh my god, this has been so much fun Justin, I could talk to you all day.
Justin Reynolds: Yes, it's been awesome!
Sarah Enni: I feel like this was an episode packed full of actual, really practical tips that I really love being able to give to people. So this is great. Can we talk about what's coming up for you? Do you have anything that you can share? Or what's going on?
Justin Reynolds: Yeah, so my sophomore novel comes out in September, September 22nd. It's called Early Departures. And I'm really excited about that story. It's funny because some people, when I pitched it or when people have heard someone else pitch it, they're like, "It kinda sounds like Opposite of Always." And I'll say tonally it's pretty different. And that's not to dissuade people who love Opposite of Always, but it's a different voice, it's a different person, very much so in a different headspace.
And so Early Departures, it's similar to Opposite in that it has a speculative element kind of driving it at the center. So Opposite had time travel as a mechanism inside of the book. And Early Departure has this technology called reanimation in which you can bring back someone who's died. But the catch is that the technology, at the time, only allows for a very limited amount of time for that person to be brought back. And to date, at the start of the novel, they've never brought anyone back more than nineteen days. So it's a very short period of time.
And so in this particular story, it's about best friendship. It's about two boys, Jamal being the main character, and his best friend Q. And they have been estranged for about two years. And what happened, the inciting incident behind their split, is Jamal lost both of his parents in a pretty tragic accident and he kind of blames Q for being at the center of that. And so they've gone their separate ways. But then, as these things happen, they're kind of forced together in this very action packed night in which a lot of ghosts that hadn't been dealt with kind of come to a head.
And then also, an accident happens in which, and this is not really a spoiler this happens pretty quickly, where Q finds himself in a life-threatening situation and Jamal does his best to try to pull his friend through, but Q ends up passing away. And so then that's when that technology kind of comes into play where this mysterious organization comes out of the woodwork and offers to bring back Q.
But of course, there's always a price. They offer to do it for free, but of course, there's always a price to pay. And the other catch to the story is that they're gonna bring back Q, and I won't say how many days. But they're gonna bring you back Q for X amount of days. But with this technology, the way they rewind and kind of reset the individual they're bringing back, in order to prevent the trauma of that experience of death is, they reset you and recalibrate your brain so that that episode is not there anymore. And so you don't know that you died.
And that means you also don't know that you're gonna die again. Right? And so it's up to the family, especially because Q is under age and is considered a minor still, his family can make his healthcare decisions. It's up to them to decide if they want to tell Q that he's in fact kind of the walking dead. Or if they want to let him just live out the remainder of his days without that knowledge and kind of enjoy his last few days on earth.
It's kind of a letter to one of my best friends who passed away. And the things that I didn't say in Opposite, I'm saying in this story. And it's very much about the culture that we live in, and I won't go too deep into it, but the culture that we live in where we talk about toxic masculinity a lot. And about hyper-masculinity and how uncomfortable sometimes men are about expressing love and affection for another man. Outside of a sexual context where it's just like, "This is my best friend. I love you." And so this is very much like that, dealing with that also. And being able to express how you feel about somebody who means so much to you.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I can't wait to read this. That sounds amazing. And yeah, a book full of feelings. That's what I love out of my YA contemporary. So I am excited. I mean, it's worth mentioning that Opposite of Always is very funny. So I'm sure that this is also gonna be very funny in addition to being full of feelings.
Justin Reynolds: Oh, it's funny, when I give The Opposite of Always pitch, the pitch is like, "Groundhog Day, except instead of reliving the same day over and over again, you have to relive the same four months over and over again. Except at the end of the four months, the person that you love most in the world dies."
And then it's like, "But it's also funny." Which, people are always like, "Okay." But no, it's one of those things where it's just trying to find that balance. Because real life is pain and comedy oftentimes intertwined. Right? And so, just finding the ability to try to tell both sides of the story.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Well, I love it. Well this has been so fun. I'm gonna turn off the creepy recording now.
Justin Reynolds: Okay. Yes, yes, please do.
Sarah Enni: Thank you so much to Justin. Follow him on Twitter @andthisJustin and Instagram @JustinwritesYA. And find me on both @SarahEnni (Twitter and Instagram), and the show @Firstdraftpod (Twitter and Instagram).
This show was brought to you by Highland 2 the writing software that won't break the bank or your brain. Available @highland2.app. That's Highland, the number two.app. And by We Didn't Ask For This, the newest novel by Adi Alsaid out from Inkyard press now.
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Thank you so much CC. That's just the kindest words and so sweet to think that my voice would be calming for you, especially in this time. What a compliment that is. Thank you so much. It's going right on the Tinder profile [laughs].
Okay, if you have any writing or creativity questions for exactly this kind of episode, the mailbag episodes, I'd love to hear from you and get your question in a future episode. You can call and leave your question at First Draft's voicemail that's at (818) 533-1998. Or you can record yourself asking the question and send that to mailbag@firstdraftpod.com. That's how listeners got me questions for this episode so you can tell it really works.
Hayley Hershman produces First Draft. This episode was produced and sound designed by Callie Wright. The theme music is by Dan Bailey, and the logo was designed by Collin Keith. Thanks to transcriptionist-at-large, Julie Anderson.
And as ever, to all of you, crisscross zoom background users, for listening. [Laughs] When I joined the call with Justin, he still had a crisscross background up on his zoom from his previous zoom call. It was really, it was a true joy.
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