Track Changes Episode 2: Agents: Who Are They And How to Get One

LISTEN TO THE EPISODE

We meet Jennifer de Leon as she prepares for the release of her debut young adult novel, Don’t Ask Me Where I’m From, on August 4th. Though Jennifer has been writing for years, she quickly learns that there’s a lot about Capital-P-Publishing that she doesn’t know. (Hear her First Draft interview here.)

We meet Holly Root, literary agent and founder of Root Literary who represents clients such as Victoria Schwab (hear her First Draft interview here), Jasmine Guillory (listen to her First Draft interview here), and Christina Lauren.

Seth Fishman, he’s an author and literary agent with The Gernert Company and manager of their West Coast office. He reps clients such as John Joseph Adams, Ali Almossawi, and Kate Beaton.

This episode is brought to you by Writing in Place, the podcast series brought to you by bestselling and Printz-winning author Nina LaCour (listen to her First Draft interviews here and here), who also brings you the Keeping a Notebook podcast and the Slow Novel Lab.

You’re listening to Track Changes for practical advice on the publishing industry but I would advise taking care to protect and nurture your creative side. Nina, whose podcast Keeping a Notebook is already a wonderful source of creative inspiration, has developed a new series within a series called Writing in Place.

In each episode, Nina shares a story, a photo, and a writing prompt to give you the space to stay creative and connected, even in deeply uncertain times.

Find Writing in Place in the Keeping a Notebook podcast feed and find more information and sign up for her newsletter @NinaLaCour.com.

Sarah Enni: Before Jennifer de Leon wrote and sold her debut young adult novel, Don’t Ask Me Where I’m From, she’d written a book for adults ....and she’d even gotten a book agent. But something just didn’t feel right.

Jennifer de Leon: I felt like with my first agent, I didn't know what I didn't know.

Sarah Enni: Like, Jen wasn’t sure how many times she could email her agent.

Jennifer de Leon: If she didn't write me back within a week if, “That's it. She ghosted me and I better just go and look for another agent.” I didn't know what was normal.

Sarah Enni: Jen says she didn’t even feel comfortable calling her agent.

Jennifer de Leon: I always felt like if I contacted her, I was actually bothering her.

Sarah Enni: When you spend years honing your craft, dreaming of one day seeing your book on a shelf, it can warp your perception of what working with an agent actually is.

Jennifer de Leon: I'm not seeing it as a business relationship, which it is first and foremost.

Sarah Enni: But when Jen wrote her YA novel, she got a new agent...and things changed.

Jennifer de Leon: It just felt different right out the gate. I felt like I had real support, a real cheerleader, a real friend actually.

Sarah Enni: I’m Sarah Enni, author of Tell Me Everything and creator and host of First Draft. This is Track Changes...a special First Draft series covering everything you don’t know you don’t know about publishing.

This week, Literary Agents...who are they? What do they do? Why should you get one? How do you get one? And how do you know when it’s the right fit?

We’re getting into all of it with some real, living, breathing agents.

But first a bit more from Jen...

If you haven’t listened to Episode 1 of Track Changes (listen on the website; Apple Podcasts; Spotify; or Stitcher), go back and do that! It has really great overviews on the publishing industry, and that’s where we first meet Jen. And she’s great.

If you have listened to the first episode, then you remember that Jen’s debut novel comes out August 4th, and we’re following along as she navigates book publishing for the first time.

Jen’s agent is Faye Bender, partner with The Book Group and a veteran of the industry. Jen first heard about Faye from one of Faye’s clients, author Natalie C. Anderson...

Jennifer de Leon: I'll never forget when she said, “Oh my God, you want to go with Faye. When she sends a manuscript out, you better believe those editors drop what they're doing and they go and read it.”

Sarah Enni: That sounded pretty good to Jen.

Jennifer de Leon: That's awesome. Like that's what you want. You don't want the email to just die in their inbox. And that response is something that you can't gain from going to a fancy conference, or you can't buy. It's built and cultivated.

Sarah Enni: And it wasn’t just Faye.

Jennifer de Leon: I felt like, “I'm not just signing with Faye, I'm signing with The Book Group”. And these ladies, their power is just compounded by the resources they have, and they talk and share. And when one agent wins, it's a win for all of them.

Sarah Enni: Most importantly with Faye, Jen felt like she had an advocate who really got what her story was about, and cared about getting it to readers.

Jennifer de Leon: I guess I wanted to put the story in the hands of somebody who would understand it, connect to it. I wanted somebody who saw it as a book, hopefully, with a long tail and not just the ‘it’ book for this season cause Latin X is in the news.

Sarah Enni: Once they were officially agent and client, Faye started showing Jen the ropes.

Jennifer de Leon: This is my debut novel, everything is new. Every experience, meeting, marketing, this and that, it's for the first time. And for her, she's bringing twenty-plus years of experience with multiple authors and their journeys, and houses, and trends, and media. She has all of that, that she's bringing to our partnership.

Sarah Enni: Jen had a lot of questions. From simple everyday details…

Jennifer de Leon: Like, “Oh my god, I need to rush order business cards or is that super tacky? Is that like 80’s? What am I supposed to do?” Like, “What's the dress code?” Like, “Am I allowed to post on social media about this?”

Sarah Enni: To bigger, career-scope things.

Jennifer de Leon: Authors do school visits, right? In my mind, this is what they do. So I emailed her like, “Should I have a website page dedicated to school visits?” Like, “Should I do that?”

Sarah Enni: And Faye is always quick to provide guidance.

Jennifer de Leon: And then she wrote back and said, “Yeah, you certainly can.” She was like, “But just so you know, a lot of schools don't really bring in authors and pay authors to come in and talk unless you're a big name author, or have maybe two or three or four books out.” And so then I'm like, “Okay.”

So then it's like, “Alright, I can make a page, not a big deal.” But then my expectations aren't like, “Oh, I'm not traveling around the country like Jason Reynolds giving book talks.” Like, “Of course you’re not. Nor should you think you should be doing that.”

Sarah Enni: Basically, in addition to helping Jen find an editor and sell her book, Faye serves as a guide, a sounding board, and a resource to help Jen tell up from down, and left from right, as she embarks on her publishing career.

Jennifer de Leon: In a way, she kinda takes things off the table, less for me to freak out about like, “Nah, don't worry about that.” And I love that because I am very good at freaking out about things.

Sarah Enni: Two veteran agents agreed to sit down and shed some light on all of this, and give us all a lot less to freak out about.

Seth Fishman: You know, you are us in a lot of ways. We are fifteen percent of you.

Sarah Enni: That’s Seth Fishman, he’s an author himself, and a book agent with The Gernert Company and manager of their West Coast office. He reps clients such as John Joseph Adams, Ali Almossawi, and Kate Beaton,

Seth Fishman: I think that there's a misconception that the editor is the most important part of a writer's life. But in reality, it's the agent that you sign first. It's the agent that you're gonna be with forever, hopefully. It’s the agent who, if an agent moves to another agency, you go with them.

Sarah Enni: There is a ton to get into when it comes to understanding the role an agent can play in your publishing career.

Holly Root: In many ways, I think a lot of the value that we bring is as professional perspective-givers. The journey to publishing a book is so fraught, that I cannot imagine doing it by yourself. It would be really lonely and hard.

Sarah Enni: And that is Holly Root, a veteran book agent and the founder of Root Literary, who reps clients like Victoria Schwab (hear her First Draft interview here), Jasmine Guillory (listen to her First Draft interview here), and Christina Lauren.

So, okay. Obviously if you sit and talk to two book agents, they’re going to be in favor of authors finding representation with book agents.

Seth Fishman: I think an author should go with an agent no matter what.

Sarah Enni: But let’s hear them make the case for why an author should secure representation and agree to pay that agent the industry-standard fifteen percent of all earnings.

Seth Fishman: What the agent does is just bring a level of expertise to a business.

Sarah Enni: Remember Jen saying she was scared to call her first agent? She had not yet put their relationship into perspective. Jen just felt lucky to have representation at all. But Seth urges writers to shift that perspective.

Seth Fishman: You've got to think about it as: you as a writer are a business. You are your own business and you hire the agent. We work for you. I know it's a strange power dynamic in that you want an agent really badly, most of the time, at the beginning. But the truth of the matter is, is that you pay us money for the work that we do.

Sarah Enni: And that work is more than just negotiating contracts. Yes, absolutely, agents act as contract negotiators. But they also act as business consultants who can give you needed insight on this industry that they live and breathe every single day.

Holly Root: As you start to look at building a career, that's where an agent becomes really important and essential. Because we're not just saying, “Well, here's what you could do.” We're saying, “Well, here's what I've seen done.”

So it's not just your one thing. It's everything I've ever done. Everything I've ever seen. Everywhere I've ever worked. Everyone I've ever talked to. All of that rattling around in my head is what you're basically getting access to when you become someone's client.

And it’s a breadth of knowledge. You could never have three hundred careers. You don’t have time, and it doesn’t work that way. But I can hold in my head three hundred different careers that I’ve seen over the course of my time in the industry, and pick and choose from those for strategies, and approaches, and opportunities for revenue, and all of these other things that we can bring to bear for each individual creator.

Sarah Enni: So if and when you’re interested in working with a literary agent, you want to put together a list of agents who might be interested in your work. Jot it down, or start a Google Doc, or an Excel spreadsheet, whatever works for you. But I highly recommend learning how to make a spreadsheet.

It’s important to note there is no formal credential for being a literary agent -- anyone can call themselves an agent. So the next, and most important question in my opinion is: How the heck do you know if an agent is any good?

Holly Root: So I always recommend that people who are looking for agents start building a list. Not get fixated on one sort of “dream agent,” quote unquote, because I think a lot of that is just good internet presence most of the time. Not that those people aren't great, but you just can't fixate on it. You don't actually know how they work.

Sarah Enni: Holly’s saying, “You can’t judge a book by its internet presence.” Instead, look at the whole picture when deciding who to approach about representation. For starters, who are their clients? Or, think about it another way: who are authors you love and who write the kinds of things you write, and who represents them?

Seth Fishman: Picking up the book that you love, looking at acknowledgements, finding the agent there is the easiest physical way of doing that.

Holly Root: And ideally you're not just looking at huge name people, like who represents Stephen King is not necessarily helpful for you starting out in The Year of Our Lord 2020. But who represents that debut novel that Stephen King blurbed might be.

Sarah Enni: And to get more information...for $25 a month, you can get a subscription to Publishers Marketplace. And through their online portal, you can search every agent individually and see what deals they’ve made in the last six months, twelve months, or throughout their entire career. Check the show notes of this episode for more resources.

Another thing to consider is: What agency do they work for?

Seth Fishman: Being at a good agency means that the whole agency represents you in some way, shape, or form. So when I was starting out, if I had a question, I went to my very experienced boss and asked that question.

Sarah Enni: Being at a great agency gives newer agents access to experience that they themselves don’t yet have. You can also try to put yourself in a position where agents come looking for you.

Seth Fishman: Part of the way that you find an agent is almost by just putting yourself out there. And this is a question that comes up a lot, “Should I be writing short stories or something along those lines?”

I found my first client by digging through Tin House Magazine. Or if you're writing genre and you're up for an award in the short fiction space, agents will look for you there. So sometimes it's also putting yourself out in ways that do not require an agent, where agents are hunting.

Sarah Enni: Okay. So you’ve found some agents who represent the kind of books that you write, and some authors you admire. You’ve googled, you’ve researched, and most importantly, your book has been revised within an inch of its life and is as polished as you can possibly make it. Now you are ready to send out query letters.

Can we just stop for a minute and admire this term? Query. It’s like, British for question, right? Well in publishing, in this day and age, a query letter is an email that you send to the email address specifically noted by an agent on their website. The query letter -- email -- is a brief, one-page explainer of who you are, what your book is about, and why you think that agent is right for your project.

Seth Fishman: One of the things I'll say first, is that you really do need to do your research per agent, just follow their guidelines. Just simply follow their guidelines. You want to make things as easy as possible. In my mind, a query letter is three paragraphs. It can be longer than that, but there’s three paragraphs. There is the, “Why am I writing you?” paragraph. Which is the first, it's very short.

Sarah Enni: This is where your research on who the agent represents can come in handy. Seth suggests something like this: Dear Mr. Fishman, I am writing to you because you represent web comics with humor and a distinct point of view, like Kate Beaton’s Hark, a Vagrant.

Seth Fishman: The second paragraph, which can be longer, but there’s no reason it needs to be, is the synopsis. And it tells you about the book.

Sarah Enni: The synopsis. Ohhh, the synopsis. A lot of work goes into writing a clear, concise synopsis that will make someone--especially an agent--interested in reading your work. There’s a ton of great resources out there for how to write a compelling synopsis, so check the show notes of this episode for some links.

Seth Fishman: And then the third paragraph is who you are, which is the paragraph that is your bio that tells what you've been published in. If you've been published in five hundred magazines, list four or five and then say, ”And others.” Your MFA programs you've been in, anything that sort of helps along those lines.

Sarah Enni: Then biographical details, if they’re helpful.

Seth Fishman: I would love to know what you do for a living, but it's not always important. But when it is important is when it directly affects the book. So if you're writing a book about a coal miner and you work in the coal mines, then you should reference that because that's something we care about.

Sarah Enni: Then be sure to sign off by thanking them for their time and consideration.

This can be an especially useful structure when you’re just getting used to query letter writing, but it’s not a hard and fast rule. Always stick to the format or other specifications that an agent has laid out on their website.

And both Seth and Holly urge you to remember: This is a professional communication, and you can stand out most by sending well-written, spell-checked query letters that get, and stick to, the point.

Holly Root: Don't worry so much about needing to earn your place. Just worry about giving us a sense of who you are as a creator. Why you wrote the book is nice to know if it has a story, but we don't have to have pages and pages of, “I was motivated from the time I was in kindergarten.” Which is a thing we see all the time. The inner monologue can stay inner.

Sarah Enni: Some of the biggest mistakes that they see in query letters….

Holly Root: For me, the biggest mistake I see is that pitches don't make me want to read the book. People forget that the job of a pitch is the same as the job of the copy in the bookstore, which is to convince someone to pick it out of the shelf, the virtual shelf. And people forget to make you want to read the book. They're so caught up in like, “Why me? Why now? What about this? How do I get in?” That they forget that the first job is just buy-in.

Seth Fishman: The job of the query letter is to get you to turn the page. No fancy fonts, no extra lines, no jokes. And listen, if you're a funny person and you want to put in some jokes, that's fine. I'm just saying you don't have to risk it.

Sarah Enni: Seth and Holly say the best piece of advice they have is to keep it clean... And just get out of your own way.

Seth Fishman: We’ve looked at so many queries, and to me I've discovered a correlation, a direct correlation, between a sloppy query letter and a sloppy novel. It just is not a good starting point.

Holly Root: People overthink it so much that less is more in a lot of cases. You just want to make me not say no, before I even look at the page.

Sarah Enni: You’ve polished your book, built your list of agents, and honed a query letter. Now you start sending query letters to agents, not via mass email, making sure to personally tailor every query letter to that agent, following their specifications.

There are a few red flags to be on the lookout for...like if an agent asks for any up-front fees. Or if an agent offers paid editing services, or refers you to an editing service in exchange for representation. That’s how your run-of-the-mill publishing scam operates. Run, don’t walk.

And another thing to look out for that’s not as alarming but good to notice: if an agent tells you they want an exclusive submission.

Seth thinks it’s a pretty unfair ask.

Seth Fishman: The only times I think that it's fair is if I've reached out to someone and I'm sort of pitching them ideas and working with them, and then I expect us to have a reciprocal relationship. Or at least they tell me that they're submitting it elsewhere.

But if an agent, and some bigger agents are like this, they say they want an exclusive submission, then what they're saying to you is that they don't want to compete against someone else. And what is this world but the opportunity for you to make a choice for the person that fits you the best. And so they're taking away your choice, your opportunity, to find the right fit.

Holly Root: You've got it right. It’s like, “We only accept exclusive submissions.” And you recoil in horror, “No!” I don't think that's fair or appropriate for authors.

Seth Fishman: But it's common!

Holly Root: It's common. It is. And I understand because there are so, so, so many agents now. I understand why some agents choose to do that. But to me, I just sort of run every decision through the lens of like, “Our foundational premise is that we are advocates for authors and is that right for authors?” And to me, it does not feel like it is.

Sarah Enni: Okay. Once you start sending out query letters, something’s going to happen. Rejection. It’s sad but true, rejection comes for us all, and it will come for you. Talk to your loved ones, your writer friends, your dog, your cat. Do not talk to the internet. And do not respond to the agent who rejected you with anything besides an email that says, “Thank you for your time and consideration.”

But let’s say you’ve done all the right things and you’ve piqued an agent’s interest…

That agent will reach out and ask to read more. They may ask for a partial manuscript, or a full manuscript. Respond to that request promptly and professionally, and give them what they asked for. Nothing less, and nothing more.

Then, dear listener, be patient.

Agents have many existing clients, and busy schedules, and personal lives. They have to read an enormous amount of material. Follow up, but I would wait for at least a month. Querying is a long game.

Patience. After the break.

I am so thrilled that our presenting sponsor today is Writing in Place, the new project from Nina LaCour (listen to her First Draft interviews here and here) that could not have come at a better time. Nina, best-selling and Prinz Award winning novelist of We are Okay, is also the creator of The Slow Novel Lab. A six-week writing intensive that is perfect for writers at any stage of their journey to go deeper into their work.

Nina also has one of my favorite writing podcasts ever, Keeping a Notebook. It’s calm, reflective and always inspiring. Now, she’s made the perfect spinoff series for all of us trying to stay creative in deeply uncertain times. Writing in Place is about writing and about home. In each episode, Nina shares personal stories and reflections and shares a writing prompt that you can use to reignite your creative fire, if you’re having trouble. Or, just serve as a peaceful few minutes of the day.

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Sarah Enni: So, an agent read your query and asked to read your book. There’s generally three paths that your journey could take from here. One is rejection. To be clear, rejection is pretty much Option One at every stage of the publishing journey from here till eternity.

Two is that the agent may ask that you do some revising of your manuscript based on notes that they will give you. That’s known as a Revise and Resubmit. It’s not uncommon, and it’s generally a really good sign. That agent likes your work enough to put the time and effort into giving you feedback.

That being said, Revise and Resubmits, or R&Rs, are totally optional. You do not have to do them, and you probably shouldn’t if you don’t like or agree with the agent’s notes, or how they delivered them.

And then there’s the third path: The agent really liked your book, and they think they might want to represent you. What’s next?

Holly Root: Then I will usually email the person and see if we can jump on the phone.

Sarah Enni: That’s right: the phone. This part can feel a lot like dating someone new.

Holly Root: I’m trying to figure out, are we fundamentally aligned on vision?

Sarah Enni: Compatibility is important because your relationship with your agent is for good times and bad.

Holly Root: Will you be able to hear me when I tell you things? Because even if everything goes really well, we're gonna have hard conversations along the way. There's gonna be things that stink. There's gonna be things that are frustrating. If we don't hear each other well, we won't be a good pair.

Sarah Enni: One way Seth sees whether he and a potential client would get along well is to see how the writer responds to critique

Seth Fishman: I always come with editorial notes because I want to hear how you take them. You don't have to agree with all the things I have to say, but you're gonna be edited somewhere down the line. Let's figure out what our relationship is gonna be. Let's make sure that we aren't necessarily on the same page on all things, but that we can have a conversation and that we respect each other.

Sarah Enni: But remember that perspective we talked about at the top of the show? This is a business call for both of you.

Holly Root: It’s you interviewing me too. You're trying to figure out what I do and how I work, so that you can feel comfortable with the person on the other end of the phone.

Seth Fishman: And they're incredibly important for the author. And so to turn around that perspective a little bit, remember, we're working for you. It's an interview along those lines. So on the phone call is also a good opportunity to make sure you ask a lot of questions of your own.

Sarah Enni: But what kinds of things should an author be prepared to ask about on one of these phone calls?

Seth recommends that when you’re setting up a phone call, ask to see a copy of the agent’s typical representation agreement, so that you can look that over and then ask any questions you might have on the phone.

Holly says how an agent answers those questions can give you valuable insight into how you might work together.

Holly Root: If there are things in there that you don't understand, asking the person to explain them to you is an extraordinary opportunity to hear how they talk about contractual language, and to test if you understand them. Because sometimes people will explain things in ways that make you feel small, or silly, or like you're bothering them. And those are all important clues as to what that fit is gonna be like.

Sarah Enni: Another big thing they recommend going over in the agent phone call: sub rights. Those are things like…

Seth Fishman: “How do you handle foreign rights? Do you directly sell my audio rights?” Which we don't do much of anymore because the publishers are snapping them up as much as they can. “Do you directly sell short fiction?” If you care about that, then you really should ask the question because sometimes it's a colleague in the agency who does it. Sometimes it’s that person themselves.

“Hollywood film and TV rights? Who they work with? Do they sell things themselves? Do they attach themselves as producers? Is that something you're okay with?”

Sarah Enni: Holly says questions about revisions can be revealing for both parties.

Holly Root: I tend to work with editors who are pretty hands on, and so a client who is not interested in revision is probably someone who's not gonna work well with the people I work well with.

Sarah Enni: That phone call is also a good time to establish expectations for communication going forward.

Holly Root: I think things like, “Who am I working with regularly?” Is a great question. Like, “Will I talk to your assistant? If I sell in a big deal, will I continue to talk to you or will I be handed off to someone else on the team if I don't?” “How many people at your company will I be regularly interacting with? Do you return your own emails? Does someone else return your own emails?”

I try to be as clear about that as I can with people just so they kind of know what to expect. I proactively do this with people cause it's a big deal for me. I have a real love/hate situation with my pocket computer and I have a hard time with overwork as a general issue. I got promoted and got into this industry basically on the dint of murdering myself with performance and achievement.

So I'm trying to do better, and teach better, and model better, for my people. And one of the ways that I do that is by having ironclad boundaries around family time and weekends and things like that. Obviously there are situations where that changes, but I do try to be really clear with people up front about that. So I feel like that's a good thing for people to ask.

Sarah Enni: Then there’s a topic that isn’t usually top of mind for debut authors, but should be.

Holly Root: What happens when you leave? And nobody wants to start a relationship thinking about if you leave, but as someone who represents a lot of people who've been represented elsewhere, I can tell you it really matters. And it's a lot better, it's a lot easier, to get that stuff sorted out on the front end when it's all hope and possibility, rather than fighting over it after you've parted ways.

Sarah Enni: Though getting on the phone with an agent is a really good sign, it does not inevitably end in an offer of representation.

Seth Fishman: And sometimes I do admit I'll take the call and then I'll even think about it and change what I've thought. And I think a couple times I've rescinded an offer after being on a call.

Holly Root: I've done that on a call and had to be like, “I feel like we're not a great fit.”

Sarah Enni: Let’s say you nail the phone call, and the agent offers representation. That’s amazing! You do not have to accept right away. And, in fact, you shouldn’t if you still have outstanding communication with other potential agents. Thank that agent on the phone and tell them that you’ll get back to them with an answer soon.

Then email all the agents who have not explicitly sent a rejection letter, and let them know that you’ve received an offer of representation, and that they have a period of time, like a week or two, to consider your work before you sign with the offering agent, and are officially off the table.

Agents are competitive. This alert that you have an offer of rep could lead other agents to consider your work and reach out. Maybe more phone calls, and maybe more offers.

Getting an agent is hard. Really hard. It’s a time consuming emotional roller coaster. But it’s also just the beginning of the journey to selling your book. Once you’ve written your book and gotten the agent, the next step is for you and your agent to work together and sell that book to your editor.

Holly Root: Everyone just wants certainty, and it is the one thing that you cannot give people.

That’s next time on Track Changes.

Sarah EnnI: You can follow Seth Fishman @sethasfishman on Twitter, and Holly Root @HRoot, and find Jennifer de Leon at jenniferdeleonauthor.com. And you can follow me @SarahEnni on Twitter, Instagram, and everywhere. Follow @FirstDraftPod on Twitter and Instagram, and head to FirstDraftPod.com/TrackChanges for more information and updates on Track Changes.

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Track Changes is produced by Me, Sarah Enni, and Hayley Hershman. Zan Romanoff is our story editor. The theme music is by Dan Bailey, and the logo was designed by Collin Keith.

Track Changes Episode 2: Agents: Who Are They And How to Get One

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