First Draft Episode #218: Kyle Flynn
November 5, 2019
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Kyle Flynn is the keyboardist with indie rock group Father John Misty, as well as writer of television and movies.
Sarah Enni: Welcome to first draft with me, Sarah Enni. This week I'm talking to Kyle Flynn, keyboardist in Indie rock group Father John Misty, and writer of TV and movies. I loved what Kyle had to say about Forest Gumping his way into Hollywood, the virtue of saying yes and just doing things, and his developing aesthetic of concision. So please, sit back, relax and enjoy the conversation.
Sarah Enni: I like to start at the very beginning, like very, very beginning. So do you mind telling me where you were born and raised?
Kyle Flynn: I was born and raised in Kennewick, Washington in Southeastern Washington.
Sarah Enni: Tri-cities!
Kyle Flynn: Tri-cities. Yeah that's right.
Sarah Enni: So I know where you went to college cause I know you from college days, but I actually don't know much about how you got into playing music, and coming down to LA. So do you mind talking about how music was a part of growing up for you, and then how you grew into doing it in a more professional way?
Kyle Flynn: As long as I can remember I've been completely obsessed with music. Even from a very, very young age. It was very important to my family as well. My mom forced me to take piano when I was maybe seven or eight and I hated it. I made her life miserable because I was very into Metallica and Motley Crew and Guns N' Roses..
Sarah Enni: That young?
Kyle Flynn: Oh yeah. My best friend had an uncle who had a record store and would pass off all of the parental advisory albums. He would pass them on to me and I would have to hide them. But yeah, I was super into hair metal and all of that.
Sarah Enni: Cause this was in that time.
Kyle Flynn: Oh for sure. For sure. Yeah, the mid-late eighties when that was the coolest thing you could be into at the time. Yeah.
Sarah Enni: But I interrupted the story. So you were taking piano. You were not digging it?
Kyle Flynn: No, it was awful. I hated it. I was playing these goofy tunes and I had considered myself a little mullet-haired rock and roller. But my mom forced me to do it until high school. She was like, "Once you hit high school, you can do whatever you want." I just wanted to play guitar so bad. So as soon as I hit ninth grade, I dropped piano like a bad habit and started shredding. I just learned from my guitar magazines and had a blast. But I mean, ironically, I play piano for a living now. That's what I do. And my mom never lets me forget it. It's just bizarre how those things work out. I didn't really appreciate it at the time, but it gave me a foundation for all of my musical endeavors afterwards.
Sarah Enni: You're self-taught then on guitar?
Kyle Flynn: Yeah, yeah. I mean, there were these magazines called Guitar World and they had... it's called tablature, and it's poor man's musical notations. But they always had songs in every issue in the back. So it's like a series of ones. It's a picture, essentially, of a fretboard. So the six strings and then a number corresponds to the fret so anybody can read it. And I just would devour those and pick those things up and just learn every song in the back of those.
Sarah Enni: That's so cool. So were you writing your own music? At what point did that become?
Kyle Flynn: Always, yeah. They weren't even necessarily full songs, but I would kind of screwball around on the piano or pick out a couple of notes on the guitar and make up little melodies and stuff. But I didn't really start writing full songs until probably high school.
Sarah Enni: On guitar?
Kyle Flynn: On guitar, yeah.
Sarah Enni: Before we move on to college and professional musicianship, I do also want to know how was reading and writing a part of growing up too?
Kyle Flynn: So my mom was a fifth grade teacher and just pushed books on us from a very early age. I mean she read to us when we were little, and really instilled a love of reading from an early age too. I was a crazy reader when I was little. It was kind of a thing I kept to myself, I wasn't advertising it. But I was just devouring books.
Sarah Enni: Were you doing any writing on your own?
Kyle Flynn: Not on my own at that point. I remember being very excited about writing stories in school and my English classes, and doing some creative writing and stuff. But I was never really doing it outside on my own time.
Sarah Enni: We're gonna get into how you then actually moved on to become a professional musician. But when you're this young [and] obviously [a] really creative kid, were you thinking that this was something you could do professionally? Were you taking it that seriously? How were you thinking about these hobbies?
Kyle Flynn: I wanted to be in bands. I was never like, "I'm gonna be a concert pianist or a [unintelligible] but I was obsessed with being in a band, and I was always trying to start bands. And I was very focused and I would always have trouble finding people who took it as serious as me. And everyone probably was like, "Who is this yahoo trying to wrangle us into band practice five days a week?" But I really, really wanted to do it. Whenever anyone would ask, “What do you want to do when you grow up?” I was like, "I want to be in a band, I want to play music." But I never really actually thought it could happen. I grew up in a very small town where I didn't know anybody who did that. I didn't know how you would ever do that, but I just felt like that's what I wanted to do. And in the back of my mind I was like, "Oh, you know, I'll probably do something else, but this is what I'm saying." Like willing it into existence.
Sarah Enni: I love that. That's manifesting.
Kyle Flynn: Yeah, that's right.
Sarah Enni: I love that. So lead me to going to school and how you were trying to get your foot in the door in Seattle, which is a way big music scene.
Kyle Flynn: I didn't really play music in college. I mean I was constantly playing music on my own, but when I went to school at the University of Washington for writing, I really was in it.
Sarah Enni: You sent to school for writing?
Kyle Flynn: For writing. Well, initially to be a doctor until I took my first chemistry class in college and I was like, "Nope!"
Sarah Enni: What! Oh my god. You were gonna be Pre-Med?
Kyle Flynn: It was horrible. It was a nightmare. And it did not go super well. So I was like, "I love reading. I just want to read great books and have someone point me towards the good stuff.” And I loved every second of it. And I did English Literature and Spanish.
Sarah Enni: And Spanish. That's so funny. I didn't know that you were an English major. That's awesome.
Kyle Flynn: Yeah. So I did that, and I still have my band back home in the Tri-Cities, which was three or four hours away. So my hometown dudes, some of my neighbors, and we had a little thing. And so I would pop back and we would play shows and stuff around the state. But mainly I was just focused on school and it would take up enough of my time.
Sarah Enni: Where you doing, you're obviously reading a ton?
Kyle Flynn: Reading a ton. Yep.
Sarah Enni: Were you doing any creative writing? Or were you thinking about that at all?
Kyle Flynn: No. Just all critical. There was the creative writing path or the literature path, and that's the path that I chose. So honestly, I didn't do a ton of creative writing at all. I mean, I was still obsessed with music and just seeing every show. I was so excited to be in Seattle and have access to all these great venues and great bands coming through. So that was huge for me. But I wasn't really playing at all.
Sarah Enni: So how did that then develop? How did you move forward? After graduation comes up then what do you think about the next step?
Kyle Flynn: I didn't know what the heck I was gonna do. I was working at a seafood restaurant busing tables, and it was a nightmare. I'd have stress dreams about [it]. It was Anthony's on Pier 66, I don't know if you remember that. So there's a lot of tourists. And people were really horrible to me, especially being the bus boy. I was just handling garbage all day, which is fine. But I was like, "What the hell am I doing with my life?
Sarah Enni: This is not what you want to do.
Kyle Flynn: And my last few years in college, I met a couple of people who were musicians also. And one of them was in a band that got signed to Columbia Records, and they were about to go out and do some touring. And one of the guys was sleeping on my couch when I was working at this restaurant. And I had weird restaurant hours, and he had weird musician hours, so we would just be up really late and became really good friends and run around at night.
Kyle Flynn: And he was like, "We need a merch guy to go on tour with us.” And I'm like, "Oh my God. I'm doing it!" And there was no pay. I literally made zero dollars. I got $5 a day in per diems. And I'm sure when I told my parents, they were like, "What are you doing? You just went through... you finished college and you're losing mone?" But I was like, "I want to do this really bad. I just want to go travel and tour and do this." And the band was also like, "We need somebody to maybe fill in some holes musically. So kind of a cleanup hitter, someone who can play a little bit of a handful of things. So if this works out, maybe you can start playing with us." And so that's what happened. I went and did a tour and had the best time of my life just slinging tee shirts, and then eventually ended up playing auxiliary stuff for them.
Sarah Enni: What band was this?
Kyle Flynn: It was called Acceptance (check out their debut album Phantom, and they have reunited and released a new record, Collision By Design). It was a pop rock band.
Sarah Enni: So you're not on the internet. You were one of the hardest people to research that I have ever talked to. But I did find the Wikipedia page for this band.
Kyle Flynn: Oh really?
Sarah Enni: Yeah.
Kyle Flynn: Oh, that's so funny.
Sarah Enni: I think you played with Further Seems Forever and Thursday and Finch and people that. Oh my God, I was going to all of those shows. I might've even seen you. I don't know if you ever played San Jose?
Kyle Flynn: Oh, for sure we did! Yeah, that's hilarious.
Sarah Enni: Yellow Card or whatever down there.
Kyle Flynn: Oh, of course.
Sarah Enni: That was definitely when I was getting into all of that music and going to shows, which was so fun. So you got the taste of being on tour and playing a little bit.
Kyle Flynn: Yeah.
Sarah Enni: Which is awesome. So what were you thinking? Were you like, "How do I get into this band?” Or, “How do I make my own band?" Or what were you thinking about?
Kyle Flynn: I wasn't even thinking that far ahead. I was just like, "I'm super happy doing this. This is a blast." To get to run around the country with my buddy in this band, and play shows, and to see some stuff. And I was a hired gun, so I wasn't a member of the band, but I was a guy that they hired on the side. I maybe did that for two or three years and then the band broke up. And then again, I was just living in Seattle. I don't know what the heck I was doing for a job or for money at that point, but I'm sure it was something not great. And that's where the writing thing started.
Sarah Enni: How did that come about?
Kyle Flynn: So Kevin my brother, who I know you through Kevin. My brother Kevin Flynn is ridiculous, I mean, he's ridiculously talented. He's an insane writer. And so we love movies. He was an English major as well, English and Philosophy. And we had a friend who was a comedian, who lived in Seattle and moved down to LA.
Sarah Enni: You can name all of these people.
Kyle Flynn: Okay. Nick Thune (check out his specials, Folk Hero and Good Guy). And he started doing really well, and we went down and visited him and it was inspiring to us to be like, "Oh man, you can actually do this." I don't know if we really thought anything would ever come of it, but for fun, we started writing a screenplay while we were living in Seattle. My band that I was playing in had broken up and I wasn't really doing anything. I don't know what he was doing at the time. He must've just graduated. So we started writing this screenplay and my buddy Nick was getting these general meetings in LA. And I think he was in, well I know he was in, with Warner brothers. And the general meetings are just where they call you in to just talk about whatever. If they find you interesting in any way, shape, or form. And he ran out of things to talk about in the meeting, and pitched our script. We had been talking with him and we told him about it. And he sold it in the room to Warner Brothers. We were a quarter of the way into this thing and he calls us and he's like, "You gotta move down here. We're gonna write this movie.” And so we were like, "Alright, let's do it." So we packed up and moved down to LA and did that.
Sarah Enni: That's so wild. It's also, again, just cool. And the reason I'm harping on this is just that I think the people listening to this podcast, many of them are aspiring people in creative fields. And I love that you just did the thing, you know?
Kyle Flynn: I have learned that that is the key to everything, is literally just doing it. It's so hard to do. It's easy to say, but impossible to just do something. It's tough. It's very tough. But everything good that has ever come in my life has been like, "This is probably gonna be horrible. I don't care. I'm doing it."
Sarah Enni: And the sooner you do something, the sooner you have done it, and you can start to get better at it.
Kyle Flynn: Yes. One hundred percent.
Sarah Enni: The first time you do anything it's gonna be terrible. So just do it and get it out of the way. So then the next time you do it, it'll be so much better.
Kyle Flynn: And I still feel... I've been writing now for over a decade, and every time I start something, it's horrible. I'm like, "Agh, it's awful." And the only way I can get through anything is to give myself permission to just be like, "It's gonna be bad." Like, "I'm gonna put some garbage out there." But then I can fix it. For a while it was kind of paralyzing just being like, "Oh no, this is all awful." But it's like, "That's okay. That's okay that it's awful." But I can fix it if I have something to work on.
Sarah Enni: Totally. Yes. So I love that you guys just did that, and it's also cool to be writing with someone.
Kyle Flynn: Oh, it's the best.
Sarah Enni: What was that? I mean obviously it sort of seems your creative energy is collaborative based.
Kyle Flynn: I love it. It's my favorite way to do it, honestly. To find a good collaborator and just kinda jump in the trench together.
Sarah Enni: And help each other up.
Kyle Flynn: One hundred percent.
Sarah Enni: Which in and of itself is a skill. Being able to creatively connect with another person and not be too married to your own ideas and that kind of a thing. Do you feel that was really natural to you or did you have to learn that to some extent?
Kyle Flynn: It's a constant learning process, but also I just love doing it. It was never a struggle for me. I never have the best idea in the [room], but I'm a sucker for a good idea. I don't care where it comes from. I don't care who has it. I'm just like, "Give me the good ideas." I'm the normal amount of protective of my ideas, but I'm also naturally just like, "Who cares? The best idea wins. Let's just make it good."
Sarah Enni: It seems that was just from the get go. Your creative life involves other people.
Kyle Flynn: Yeah, for sure, and I love it! That's my preferred way to do it.
Sarah Enni: Not true for everyone. So I think it's interesting. So that's hilarious that you're up in Seattle and then your buddy is selling a script for you.
Kyle Flynn: We just Forest Gumped our way into it. I know. Yeah, I still don't know... I mean the chances are so slim. But we were just like, "Oh man, this is cake. Why doesn't everybody do this? Everyone should be writing scripts and selling them down here. It seems so easy." And then we soon realized that is not the case. We really got super, super, super lucky and it was an uphill battle after that point.
Sarah Enni: So talk to me about moving your whole life down to LA, getting established here, continuing to write and living here with Kevin, and then how music came back in the mix.
Kyle Flynn: So we were writing this script and then the writer's strike, the WGA (Writer's Guild of America West) writer's strike. We became members of the WGA, the union down here. We hadn't even written through our contract yet. We had another draft to go and then the writer’s strike hit. So we had to stop, everybody had to stop. And we ended up picketing for however long the writer's strike [lasted] cause we didn't have anything else to do. That's why we were down here. So we went to the lines and we did that every day and actually had a blast. I mean it was a stressful time, but we were meeting these insane people. We picketed with Steve Zaillian, Academy Award-winning screenwriter of Schindler’s List, people like that. We're just marching next to them and eating bad sandwiches and meeting all of these really, really amazing, gracious, creative people.
Kyle Flynn: And I must have been 25. Kevin must have been 23. So we were just little dumb-dumbs. We didn't know what the heck was going on. So they really dropped a lot of science on us. And then the strike ended, we finished our contract for that movie. And then we just couldn't... like nothing. We were writing and working on other projects and stuff, but we just realized actually how difficult it is to sell something and get something made. Selling something is insane, but to get something to be produced is just next to impossible. So that was a rude awakening. So I was running out of money and work writing. We tried to be substitute teachers, but this was also 2008 when the economy tanked.
Kyle Flynn: So everybody was struggling for work. We couldn't even get jobs we didn't want. So I was digging ditches. I was doing manual labor and working for landscaping companies. And my friends, even though I was horrible at it, they would vouch for me. And then I would embarrass them. And then my buddy who got me into the first band that first band Acceptance, joined another band that was doing really well. It was called Anberlin and they were on Universal and they had just put out a big... they had the number one Alternative Rock song at the time. And he was like, "We need somebody to do exactly what you were doing in this other band." And I was like, "Please God get me out of here. I'm coming." And then I did that. I joined up with them and toured with them for a few years, and it was a real godsend. And writing the whole time in between, when I was home. That was my hustle too... was to try and get that going and continue that.
Sarah Enni: You're kind of living both lives. This is when I start to have questions about touring as a way of living. Cause it's really hard for me to imagine. How do you have a routine? Were you doing any writing or creating your own music while you are working so hard for months at a time?
Kyle Flynn: Not well. I haven't found a way to do it while I'm on the road. I just can't. I'm sure that there are people that can do it, but I cannot. The schedule is insane. There's people around all the time. It's a very wacky way to live. And it's tough to find a quiet moment. And I'm a person who needs eight hours of time to do 45 minutes of actual work. So it's just tough. I'm always trying to be more disciplined and try and find a way to do it, but I haven't done it yet. So my life, everything was very separate. When I'm on tour, I'm on tour and I'm doing that. And then when I'm home I would just try to crash and write and do as much of that as I could.
Sarah Enni: And at home it really was writing, not your own musical...?
Kyle Flynn: Always doing my own music too. We're in my little office-y area at my house right now, and I always have a little portable small set up. So I'm always able to do a little bit. I always record on my own just if for nothing else, just for fun. Even if there was no intention of putting it out.
Sarah Enni: Well that was gonna be my question. Well actually let's get to Father John Misty and then I will ask about this. So, who is the name of your friend by the way? That connected you with...
Kyle Flynn: Christian McAlhaney.
Sarah Enni: Okay. I do show notes, so I'll just link to all these people. So people can check out their stuff.
Kyle Flynn: He's the best. Shout out to Christian.
Sarah Enni: Sounds like he was a really good friend.
Kyle Flynn: The best.
Sarah Enni: So you were touring with this band for two or three years you said? Or more?
Kyle Flynn: That's a good question. I think probably about three years.
Sarah Enni: And how did it transition to... how did Father John Misty happen? Was that the next thing or how did that...?
Kyle Flynn: So then that band also took a hiatus or no, you know what? I started a writing project at home. I got hired with Kevin, my brother, to write a web series for Fox. And so I started bowing out of tours with the second band. And then the project with Fox ended, again wasn't doing anything, trying to find something to do. And then Nick Thune who [we] wrote that first script with, and my brother and some other friends, we started doing a monthly show at UCB, at Upright Citizens Brigade, called Nick's Big Talk Show. And the premise was it was a bad talk show that some guy was hosting from his basement and having wacky guests come on. So I was working on that with those guys. And then I was also in charge of the... we had within the world of the show, we had a house band called The Narcs that was just a sloppy garage band.
Kyle Flynn: So we would be the house band playing music throughout the show. Josh Tillman, who is Father John Misty, was one of our guests on the show. This must've been before the first record came out in 2012 so it must've been 2011. So he came on the show and had the acoustic guitar and was playing these beautiful songs. And during one of the songs, during a quiet acoustic ballad, The Narcs - the house band (other members of The Narcs include: Liv Marsico (of Liphemra and previously drummer with Cold War Kids and Gothic Tropic) and Miles Gray (comedian and current co-host of The Daily Zeitgeist podcast). - it was just the best, everyone would just get rip roaring drunk during the show. And so I'm standing there, we're trying to be quiet off to the side watching Josh play a song. And the guitar player who had been sucking on a bottle of Jim Beam the whole show, I'm watching him do this, and he leans over to whisper something to me and slips and falls onto my keyboard and it made a laser sound in the middle of his song.
Kyle Flynn: And so Josh turns really quick and looks at me and I'm just like, "Oh my God". He's like, "No, you want to play? Keep playing. Play along. Go ahead if you’re dying to play." And I was like, "It wasn't...." And I'm like, "Okay." So I start playing along with this song and kind of finish out the song with him. And so then two weeks later, my buddy Nick got a text from Josh saying, "Who was that guy… Ernie? Who was playing keyboards?" And my name, for those just tuning in, is not Ernie. It's Kyle. He's like, "Does he want to come tour? Does he want to come play? I'm putting out an album and I need to put a band together?” So I was like, "Yeah, I'm in. Let's do it."
Sarah Enni: That's also very cool because at the time he had been the drummer in Fleet Foxes right? Which was instantly such a big band. And so it was exciting that he was making his own music anyway, so you know that this guy was obviously really talented.
Kyle Flynn: And I'd obviously, I thought Fleet Foxes were great. And I had actually seen Josh years ago playing his own stuff. He had a solo... it was just Josh Tillman. So I was familiar with his stuff and I thought he was crazy talented. So I was like, "Yeah, let's do it."
Sarah Enni: That it is the funniest. I did not know that story. That's amazing. And then obviously his first album blew way up.
Kyle Flynn: Crazy. Yeah, no it was wild. Really exceeded any of our expectations. We started doing very small, 150 to 300 person events. He had some name recognition and people knew that he was from Fleet Foxes, and so people were showing up. But immediately it just really took off. I had never been a part of anything like that, that I got to watch grow from the beginning. And it was wild, a very, very quick rise and it was super fun. Super exciting. Wild. Just a different vibe from any of the bands I'd been in previously and it was an interesting experience. Yeah, but so fun. I mean incredible.
Sarah Enni: This is an interesting thing for me as someone who's not ever been a part... this is a very different creative collaboration. So when you say different vibe, I'm just interested in what that means for you.
Kyle Flynn: This was like the rock and roll experience that you knew existed but I had never really experienced. In all of the bands I'd been involved with before, it was always fun and people were getting squirrelly. But this was a whole new world of squirrelly-ness that I hadn't even known was out there.
Sarah Enni: And also you get this phone call, you say yes, and then this blows up so quickly. So this is in a span of a year. It's a completely different lifestyle that you're having to adjust to on the fly. What was that like?
Kyle Flynn: I mean, I loved every second of it. I feel like I'm maybe not the best musician. I can throw a tennis ball and hit an insane musician in Los Angeles, someone who is 50 times the player that I am. But I feel my skill is, I'm very good at touring. It's very specific. That's a very specific job. And a very specific skill set, just personality-wise. I love it. I love doing it and it's not for everybody. It can really break people down. It's a really bizarre way to live. But I love it and I feel I can do it. So I was ready.
Sarah Enni: You already had been doing it.
Kyle Flynn: Yeah, so I was ready. I was like, "I'm in, let's do it." I know the rhythms of it. I'm comfortable. I love traveling.
Sarah Enni: So break that down for me. I am interested in this. This is kind of granular, but I'm interested in it. When you say it's a specific skill set, what does that mean? You don't get jet lag? Or what does that mean?
Kyle Flynn: No, I used to not... but now I get the jet lag you read about, that's just disastrous. But I mean, I guess it's more of... It's like if you're an accountant and you're working in an accounting firm, and then you don't go home and you all live in a box together for 24 hours. You have to be able to really shrink yourself down in a lot of instances, and just be very aware. I mean just make everyone's life easier and they will, in turn, make your life easier. And you really have to care about each other and put that out there. Be like, "I'm gonna respect you." And then you get that back and you just take care of each other. There's zero personal space.
Kyle Flynn: The hours are weird. You get up at three and you're in a new city, and then you go to bed at three or four in the morning and then you're exhausted. I mean, now we tour very well. We have a bus, we have a couple of buses, and it's very comfortable relative to when we started out. It was like twelve people crammed in a van. And you're getting up at six or seven in the morning and you have to drive, and then you're up till three or four in the morning. And you're sharing a hotel room with four people. And everyone's been [drinking], running around crazy maniacs and getting zero sleep. I was getting weird ailments. And we would go for months at a time. We'd be gone for three months at a time with no days off. So we would just be playing every single day and just really grinding it out. But again, so fun. I don't want it to sound like I'm complaining at all, because in the moment it's the most fun thing you could ever do. But it destroyed me physically and mentally.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, I can imagine. That's also a skill of compartmentalization in a way.
Kyle Flynn: Yes. For sure.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. It sounds like, and this is not one to one, but there is book tours that happen...
Kyle Flynn: I'm sure it's the same.
Sarah Enni: And there's some level of... and same as what you're saying. I know a lot of people that are like, "No, absolutely writing on tour is out of the question." It's just all of the focus [is] on other stuff and needing to be a public-facing person for that period of time. It's makes all of your non-public facing time about recovering from that.
Kyle Flynn: One hundred percent. Just taking care of yourself.
Sarah Enni: I don't know at all how this works. Father John Misty is truly Josh's project.
Kyle Flynn: Yes.
Sarah Enni: How consistent is the band that you've been a part of? And at what point do you get brought into any creative process with him?
Kyle Flynn: The band that we have right now has been the same band for maybe five years. There was a different band the first couple of years that was equally great and great people. But for various reasons it reformed after the first album, after the break between the first and the second album. And as far as the creative process goes, it's just Josh. It's just his thing. We're there to play the tunes live and tour.
Sarah Enni: Execute his vision.
Kyle Flynn: Yeah. Which is in some ways really nice. I can always make music on my own, but there's something really nice about having the clarity. It's really tough for a band to survive for many reasons. But one of which is if everyone's pulling in different creative directions. It can be really tough if it's not the exact right group of personalities together in a band. It's just very, very tough. It's kind of like a pressure cooker anyways, but then if you're arguing about artistic direction, it's just impossible. And I love his stuff. I think he's really good. Not because, I mean I'm obviously biased, but I like his singular artistic vision and I wouldn't have it any other way. I think that's how he operates best and I appreciate that.
Sarah Enni: It seems, I was thinking about it, in some ways you completely got the best of every world. When I was a little music loving high school person, I feel like this would have been like... you're not the person that has to do all the interviews. You're not the person who's getting necessarily internet hate or whatever negative public stuff is coming back. And you get to do all the actual performing, which is the fun part anyway. And you're playing really good music at the highest possible level. It's amazing.
Kyle Flynn: I feel so lucky. I mean it's not lost on me how... I'm just so grateful to be able to do it. Truly, I wake up every day when we're doing this and I'm just like, "I can't believe it." The thing I always said I wanted to do when I was a little kid, I'm like, "I can't believe it worked out." It's insane. And it's really a lot of luck too. It just is being [in the] right place at the right time and just fumbling through. And latching on though, when I see that opportunity I'm just like, "Oh my God, I have to make this work."
Sarah Enni: It feels like the repeating themes are moving forward with stuff even if you're not confident about it, just starting. And then when things pop up just saying yes.
Kyle Flynn: Yeah. Even if it freaks you out.
Sarah Enni: And freaks your mom out.
Kyle Flynn: And you're like, "I don't know if I'm the right person." Just being like, "Yep!" Yes's are important. Just being like, "Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead."
Sarah Enni: Yeah. I love that. So, you get this opportunity to join Father John Misty and it really takes off, and you feel good about it and excited about it. How does continuing to do your own stuff, both writing and continuing to do music, fit into your life now that you have a little bit more... You guys tour regularly?
Kyle Flynn: We do. Right now I'm in the middle of the longest period of time I've had off in years. We were based, I think we stopped in November. What month is it now? May? We stopped in November and before that we'd been going pretty consistently nine or 10 months a year for about three years. So that's a long time to be gone.
Sarah Enni: And you have dogs and stuff.
Kyle Flynn: Dogs and all sorts of stuff going on. I've got a great lady here. So when I'm home I just really weirdly separate the music from the writing. I still constantly write and record my own music, but it's almost become a very personal thing I really keep to myself. And it's more meditative and therapeutic and something I do that's just for me. And it is my favorite way to spend my time. But I don't really release anything. I just have tons and tons and tons of unreleased songs in various finished states. But I don't have to answer to anybody. I don't have to show it to anybody if I don't want to. It's really just for me. And then I write constantly too, but that's much more like I'm hustling to sell stuff. I have a manager, the whole thing, and produce all that. That gets shared around. I take notes and criticism. Which I love and I think it's very valuable, but that's more of my, "I'm putting this out in the world and everyone's gonna hopefully see it."
Sarah Enni: Yeah. The accepting of critique. Okay. So I have a few questions about your personal music and then I really want to dip into the writing more explicitly. But it is super, super interesting to me that your music ended up becoming something that you're not trying to create your own music in any individual… your own band kind of way. And then you have some stuff that was on SoundCloud and you were kind enough to send me a few more recent stuff that you've been working on. They really sounded different. So I'm interested in how you feel about your personal journey as a musician. How has your music changed? Or how do you think about what you are exploring?
Kyle Flynn: I have musical ADD. I mean I move through music really, really quickly and I'm constantly inspired by different things. So I'll be very into something and then move on very quickly and be like, "Oh my God, now this is the thing that I love and I'm obsessed with." So I think that is reflected in the music that I make too, where from month to month or week to week, everything sounds really, really different. And that's one of the reasons why I enjoy doing it so much. But I also don't really put anything out cause I just love the experimentation of it and just the process. Just trying to become better as a musician. I'm self-engineering and producing and playing everything that I do. And also my new artistic goal is just concision. My whole philosophy for everything is, “What's the most I can do with the least?” I'm trying to pare everything down and be like, "The least constituent parts, what can I achieve with that? And how big can I make that?"
Sarah Enni: So how does that actually manifest in writing a song?
Kyle Flynn: So maybe a few years ago I would take a maximalist approach where it's like, "I want to make this, I just want to throw everything in all these different... There's gonna be horns, there's gonna be synthesizers and two different drum kits. And I want to make it sound big." And I just realized my personal aesthetic artistic preference is just simple, to the point. I think that's much harder to do. To me it's much harder to write a pop song than it is to write a weird ambient nine minute jam. But to really say something, and to do it in a way that feels immediate, is really tough to do. And that's what I'm working towards in my writing and music too. So that's my new thing. So if you heard the songs from earlier, they're a little bigger, there's much more going on. And now I'm trying to edit things down to the core.
Sarah Enni: It's interesting because I'm now writing a pilot and reading a bunch about screenwriting and stuff like that. And it's so funny to me. I mean, novels are amazing and I love them. But I think people are really impressed by them. When I'm like, "Holy...!" Writing a pilot was like you have 30 pages to get so much...
Kyle Flynn: It's wild.
Sarah Enni: And it was this narrowing... I was like, "This is a fun challenge. What's extraneous?" You have to really have one story and you have to tell that story really well.
Kyle Flynn: One hundred percent.
Sarah Enni: And I think it just sharpens all edges. Right?
Kyle Flynn: Totally. Of course.
Sarah Enni: It makes you better when you pivot in any which way. That's so interesting that you're like, “Concision across all forms.” It's really helpful.
Kyle Flynn: I'm obsessed with it. I want to do the three cord Ramones punk rock version of everything.
Sarah Enni: You're just putting up a Zen garden over your...
Kyle Flynn: It's simple.
Sarah Enni: There's something too to be said for... You are executing this sonic vision with Josh's band, and you see how that gets consumed in any way, shape, or form. And then not having to put that same effort into your own stuff and just letting it be what it is. That must be really freeing.
Kyle Flynn: It's really nice. It's a beautiful thing. I'm sure I'll put some stuff out there at some point, but really right now the music that I do on my own is just for me. I love it. So I get both sides of it all right now.
Sarah Enni: And this is really quick, but you said it's therapeutic, and I of course believe and know that that's true for a creative person. But how do you feel it is? Is it just basically a meditative state?
Kyle Flynn: One hundred percent. So music is the only thing that I can lose myself in in that way that seven hours have passed and it feels like 20 minutes. And I'm totally happy doing it the whole time. And writing is not like that for me. Writing comes very... it doesn't come naturally to me. And I really, really have to work. Most of the time is me banging my head against the wall just being like, "What am I doing with my life?" And just going through this range of emotions. And I have to put a lot of work into it. So it's a very different process. It's nice to have the yin and the yang. A little bit of both.
Sarah Enni: Okay. Let's talk about the writing because this is so cool to me. I was thinking about it, and I was thinking about how it makes sense that they've all been on a mutual track a little bit, your whole adult life. But it also strikes me [that] you're a professional musician, and you're working on being a professional screenwriter and TV writer, and those two worlds don't necessarily mutually benefit each other at all.
Kyle Flynn: They don't really, yeah. It's funny, I know.
Sarah Enni: You're having to do a lot of groundwork.
Kyle Flynn: Yeah, for sure.
Sarah Enni: Both of them require knowing a ton of people and working hard and being at things all the time. And you're doing them at the same time, it's really wild.
Kyle Flynn: Yeah, that's true. That's true.
Sarah Enni: I mean, how do you think about that?
Kyle Flynn: I'm still wading through all of it. It's interesting, I don't know. I mean... just charging ahead. Again, it's probably a bad idea and the wheels could fall off at any moment. But I just really have to... I have a tendency to spread myself thin. So there's no way I could tour in this band, and then focus on starting my own band, and then trying to [write] a script. I have to cut something out or everything is terrible. So when I'm home I've just made the decision that I really want to try and hustle the screenwriting thing. And so that's what I do.
Kyle Flynn: And I think you're right. You just mentioned a second ago, you have to be present and around. And I think that's a huge, huge part of what we do. Over the years, I've been in LA for maybe twelve, thirteen years now, and most of that time the most valuable thing, and I don't want it to sound sleazy or calculated, but collecting friends and collecting good people in the industry is invaluable. Hollywood and the industry gets a bad rap, and deservedly so in some areas, but there are some incredible, incredible, brilliant people in this business. So I've spent the last twelve years just being like, "Please be my..." Meeting someone and just grabbing hold and being like, "We're friends, we're friends, we're going to..." And a lot of the people that I know now who've been just instrumental in getting anywhere in my writing career, have been people that I latched onto when me, Kevin, and my whole crew of buddies who were doing it, we all had nothing going. Absolutely nothing going. We'd be sitting at coffee shops just wringing our hands and being like, "What do we do?" Now these people are doing gigantor, heads of studios, and directing three-hundred-million dollar movies. And it's crazy. And yeah, I'm a little upset that I'm still down here. But what's the saying? Rising tides raise all ships." Something along those lines.
Sarah Enni: And also, this is part of where this question is coming from, I completely understand that frustration. And at the same time they get to be like, "Oh my buddy's touring in a rock band." There's just different... the compartmentalization helps. And then also [it] must be difficult to be like, "Oh, but also I am not just the writing part of me. I am...” you know what I mean? So let's talk about the writing. Because you sold the first script and I haven't gotten to talk to too many people who write for film and TV. So what are the different kinds of things that you've been able to work on? And same question as the music. How have you seen your own taste and style develop over time?
Kyle Flynn: So I've written so many dang scripts, and none of them will ever see the light of day. But yeah, I've done movies, written a bunch of movies, written a bunch of pilots. And right now I'm in the middle of writing a pilot and a feature. So that's where I've landed. And I don't know, I mean the one thing that I've realized in the last couple of years is, and I think it's maybe just growing as a writer and as a person, the only way I'm going to get something good is to do exactly what I want. Which sounds selfish. But it's very easy to try and predict shifts in the market, and what people are looking for, and then write for… I want to pass it to this person.
Kyle Flynn: So maybe I'm trying to inject their taste into it a little bit. But every time I've done that, I've ended up with something that I'm not quite satisfied with. But a few years ago I wrote my first piece that... I wrote it without intending to show it to anybody. I just did it as an exercise like, "I'm gonna do something..." again kind of like my music where I'm like, "There's no pressure and no one's even gonna see it." And I just wrote exactly what I wanted to write. And it's the most success I've had with anything since we sold that first script, which was very random. But that's just what I've been trying to do. And people may think it's terrible, and our tastes might not be aligned, but I think I just get such a better response when it's something that feels more personal and feels more specific. And you just have to trust your own taste.
Sarah Enni: This comes up over and over again too. And it's dorky to talk about philosophies of comedy, but it's the comedic thing, right? Because the specific is universal.
Kyle Flynn: Yeah, yeah. Totally.
Sarah Enni: It's also like zeitgeists aren't engineered in the lab. The fact that two movies always come out about the same thing at the same time. Sometimes it's because people rushed to make the other one, but often it's just cause that's on minds, you know? It's just a general interest that's out there and you can't try to predict that.
Kyle Flynn: You can't.
Sarah Enni: You'll waste a lot of the time. This happens a lot in books too.
Kyle Flynn: It's true. I'm sure it does. And it happens in music as well. You just can't be shooting for that. It just doesn't work.
Sarah Enni: Have you taken that to heart? Do you feel you are good at keeping your eye on your own paper?
Kyle Flynn: I have to actively be like, "No, I'm doing whatever I want." It's true and it sounds bizarre, but I will veer into like, "Oh man..." Cause I know my manager, all of these producers, are gonna see it. And they'll be like, "Yeah, I don't know if they would like this." But I just have to be like, "I don't care. I'm just doing whatever I want. And if they like it, great. And if they don't, great." It just has to be this or it's gonna be terrible.
Sarah Enni: So this is random... but you now have written so many things. When you're home, say you're home for three months, do you feel like, "Okay, I can definitely write a script in this time?"
Kyle Flynn: It depends on what it is. And it depends on the project too. I've noticed I can rip a draft of something out if I've been thinking about it for a long time, and I've done a little bit about outlining. I can do it in a week or two. Then sometimes it will take me three years. There's no rhyme or reason. I constantly think about this. I'm like, "Oh, I have a couple months. I'll definitely be able to get something done." And then it's like I got three pages of something done and I don't like them. And then sometimes I'll sit down and write 15 pages in a in a few hours and be like, "I love it. I'm super happy with it." Obviously it will take some work to get to a finished point, but it's just bizarre. I can't figure it out. I wish I could.
Sarah Enni: I was gonna say, have you done any... people are always trying to reverse engineer their own brains, but for creative people this also is our livelihood. So it's extra pressure to be like, "What is it that makes something really go smooth?"
Kyle Flynn: Yeah, it's true. I think about it all the time and I don't have any good answers. I wish I did, but it's still a mystery to me. Just doing it. Again, [it’s] the only thing that I can control for myself, even if I don't get something done when I'm trying to work on [it]. I'll have a day to be like, "I'm doing this." And even if I can't get it done, as long as I put in a little bit of time and just sat in a chair and tried to do it, I feel okay.
Sarah Enni: Yes. And then you have to take time off to recharge. But I'm struggling with that right now because I think I might be a little bit too chill with myself sometimes.
Kyle Flynn: No, I think that's good. Are you talking about not being upset with yourself if you don't?
Sarah Enni: Not being upset, but I had this on and off schedule with writing and you're waiting for notes and that kind of stuff, as you know. But then over Christmas break I was with my mom in Wyoming and it was beautiful, but I was like, "Every morning I'm just gonna get up and go spend two hours writing." And I went home and was like, "I'm so much happier when I'm writing. I'm so much less anxious." That actually is solving this thing for me and helping me in this way. I don't want to forget that because sometimes then you dread coming back to it.
Kyle Flynn: Yeah, totally.
Sarah Enni: So I feel like I'm trying to remember if you just make sure that you do a couple of hours a day.
Kyle Flynn: You're gonna feel good.
Sarah Enni: You'll be cruising.
Kyle Flynn: I told myself the same thing. Sometimes works. Sometimes I just totally blow it off and I feel bad about myself. But I'm also trying to take it easy on myself cause you can get wound up in a cycle of anxiety and stress. Well at least for me, I can consistently start putting something off and then it just makes it worse and I feel horrible about myself. But also, to get back into it, I just have to give myself a little bit of a break and be like, "You blew it. It's all right. We'll just jump back in and we'll make it happen." Try and take it easy on myself a little bit.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. It's a weird balance when you're your own boss. Speaking of being your own boss, have you been mostly writing solo stuff recently?
Kyle Flynn: I have been. I always have a project or two going on with my brother in various stages of completion or development. But the last few things that I've written have been on my own, which are the first things I've written on my own. And really it's because my schedule's so wonky that it's hard to find someone I can consistently write with. And I don't want to be like a bomb and start a project with somebody and then have to take off. And then they're waiting for me, which I don't want to do that to somebody. So I've had to write on my own recently.
Sarah Enni: How's that been?
Kyle Flynn: It's really good. I mean, again, I love collaborating. I love writing with someone else. It really brings me so much joy. But it's been really cool to do a few projects on my own. I've enjoyed it. I really have.
Sarah Enni: That's good. Do you feel you've been, I mean, obviously writing on your own demands a little bit more. It's less like “best idea wins”. It feels a little bit murkier then that.
Kyle Flynn: Yeah, it is for sure. The one thing that's great about collaborating is the immediate sounding board and you can really develop ideas much quicker because you're like, "What about this?" And then someone springboards off that and you can get to a finished point quicker, a point that you're both happy with. You can get lost in the weeds real easy writing by yourself I've realized. And one of the benefits of touring and having these weird disruptions in my schedule, is gaining a little bit of perspective on stuff. I feel you collaborate with yourself, if you forget what you did. You're looking at a project again with fresh eyes after a few weeks or a month or something. You really gain a lot of insight into what's working. Sometimes I'll be super happy with the draft I have of a script I'm working on, and go away for two weeks and come back and look at it and I'm like, "Oh my God, what is this?" And really make some good changes. Because you can get too close to something and just lose all perspective on it.
Sarah Enni: Yes. That's been the biggest thing. The biggest thing that you can do with revision is just nothing. Put it in a drawer and come back in two months.
Kyle Flynn: I totally agree.
Sarah Enni: It's like the longer you spend away from it, the clearer it gets.
Kyle Flynn: I think that's totally true.
Sarah Enni: So I am just curious about, at this point you're still touring, you're still writing. What is your hope going forward? Or where are you at right now creatively?
Kyle Flynn: That's a very good question. I don't know. I mean I think about this all the time. I've locked myself into a weird position where now I have no other marketable skills, so I have to make one of these things work. Or else I'm just gonna be working at, I mean nothing wrong about Pizza Hut, but that's what my resume is, basically blank since I graduated college. I have no actual work experience so I have to do something
Sarah Enni: I love that you think that you have to just go right back to Pizza Hut.
Kyle Flynn: I'm convinced that I'm two bad decisions away from... And part of me is like, "Well, I had a good run. If I'm making pizzas, there are worse things to be doing." But I'd like to continue doing music and/or keep working in the film industry. And I don't really have, I should have a good plan looking forward, but I don't really. I'm about to go on tour this summer for a couple months. I'm really looking forward to it. It's gonna be fun. And then I have a few writing projects that are in development right now that I'm gonna try and pick up when I get back.
Sarah Enni: I mean in some ways it's interesting cause having a plan always sounds nice, but in both of these industries, having a plan is often falling.
Kyle Flynn: It's almost impossible. You really can't.
Sarah Enni: And you got pretty darn far with "just say yes" as a motto.
Kyle Flynn: I'm trying. We'll see what happens.
Sarah Enni: I love that. I think you're doing good.
Kyle Flynn: Well, thank you.
Sarah Enni: So I like to wrap up with advice. You are in a very unique position to give advice about someone who's basically balancing two different careers. What advice would you give to someone who feels just as passionately about two different forms of creative expression?
Kyle Flynn: Oh my goodness. Just go for it, I guess. I wish I had... I don't know how I got into this position and maybe I shouldn't have. But I'd say just do it. Just burn the candle at both ends if you feel really passionate about both and see what happens. You gotta kind of do it cause you love it too. It's one of those things where you'd have to be doing it even if you weren't getting paid. It just takes so much energy and time and stress. Every industry is crazy I guess. But yeah, just do it. You got it. Y'all got it.
Sarah Enni: What about advice for when you are burning the candle at both ends and just going for it, how do you self-care in that way? How do you make sure that you're staying as balanced as you can?
Kyle Flynn: I guess it would be different for everybody, but I really have to, especially as I get a little bit older, I really have to just take care of myself. Get good sleep, exercise, try and eat reasonably well to offset all of the other bad habits that I have. Yeah, that's it. Just take care of your body. Don't let things spin out of control, and keep your mind sharp. Mind and body.
Sarah Enni: Awesome! Thank you so much Kyle.
Kyle Flynn: Thank you Sarah. That was so fun.
Sarah Enni: Thank you so much to Kyle. Kyle is not on social media. Wow. He is a balanced human being. But you can follow me on Twitter and Instagram @sarahenni and the show @firstdraftpod (Twitter and Instagram). For links to everything that was discussed in this episode, check out the show notes @firstdraftpod.com. There's a lot of early two thousands bands in there, and some fun writers, and the history of the WGA strike that Kyle referenced and all that good stuff. So go check it out. If you have any writing or creativity questions that you'd like me and a guest to answer in an upcoming episode, please leave a voicemail at 818-533-1998. I'm really interested in hearing from you guys and seeing where you're at. What are challenges that are out there for people in the creative fields right now, and for people listening to this show? And see if I have any remotely helpful things to say, and I'm gonna have very smart guests on as well.
Sarah Enni: So once again, that number is 818-533-1998. If you enjoyed the show today, please subscribe to the podcast wherever you're listening right now. And if you have a couple minutes, it would just be the best if you could leave a rating or review on iTunes. I'm gonna read a recent five-star review that was left. This one's a bit of a journey. Here we go. This is posted by Love is Wise, "Wonderful interviewer. I was having a tough day, had just gotten a rejection from something I really wanted, and knew listening to an interview of Gabby Rivera's journey would pick me up. I was looking for something more in-depth than other interviews I'd come across when I found the First Draft episode. The interviewer is wonderful and her unique thoughtfulness and research made Gabby shine. She brought out something that I have not seen in any other media covering Gabby, and got past the go to talking points to hit real things from her past.
Sarah Enni: That soothed the part of me that was discouraged and hurting. This podcast really helped me. I'm so excited to follow and to discover more through listening." Wow! Love is Wise. First of all, it's so smart of you to seek out Gabby Rivera and her story. That's one of my favorite episodes ever. Anyone who hasn't heard Gabby's episode, should absolutely. Just scroll a little bit farther back. It was earlier this fall. Gabby's such an incredible person. And your kind words about the interview, that means so much to me. And Love is Wise, in addition to just being very sweet and making my day by saying that, you really helped the show start an organic growth process by leaving that review. Reviews help the algorithm, they boost us into other people's feeds and get ears on this podcast that might not otherwise find it. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Sarah Enni: Hayley Hershman produced this episode. The theme music is by Dan Bailey and the logo was designed by Collin Keith. Thanks to production assistant Tasneem Daud, and transcriptionist-at-large, Julie Anderson. And, as ever, thanks to you fellow Fall Down Narcs for listening.
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