Ruta Sepetys, #1 New York Times bestselling and Carnegie-winning author of Between Shades of Gray, Out of the Easy, and Salt to the Sea, talks about her newest novel, Fountains of Silence.
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Sarah Enni: Okay. Good morning, Ruta. How are you?
Ruta Sepetys: I'm doing great.
Sarah Enni: Good. I'm so excited we could chat.
Ruta Sepetys: Me too. Thank you for having me.
Sarah Enni: Oh my gosh. I've been hoping to talk to you for years. So I'm glad you came out with a new book so we can make it happen. We are gonna get to Fountains of Silence and recent news that has to do with Spain and exciting stuff. But first I like to start at the very beginning, which is where were you born and raised?
Ruta Sepetys: I was born and raised in a suburb of Detroit, Michigan.
Sarah Enni: And I really want to hear about your home life and about your family growing up. First I just wanna know how reading and writing was a part of growing up for you.
Ruta Sepetys: It was a huge part of growing up. I'm the daughter of an American mother and a Lithuanian father. And my parents came from backgrounds of struggle, I would say. My father fled from Lithuania when he was a little boy, spent nine years in refugee camps, came to the United States when he was fifteen and didn't speak a word of English. And of course didn't read English. My mom was the baby of ten kids and her father died when she was two. And it plunged the family into hardship. My mom had to leave school.
So again, reading and writing for my parents, these were things that they had to learn on their own. But as a result, it became so important for their children. And so our house was full of books and music, and my father's an artist. And so books, and music, and art, it played such a huge role from the time I can remember. So it's always been really important to my parents, important to me. So I started reading, even though I wasn't a strong reader, I started young. I loved books.
Sarah Enni: This is so interesting to me when you say not a strong reader, what did that mean for you?
Ruta Sepetys: Literally that when we tested in school, back in the 70s, they divided us into groups that were defined by birds. So Bluebird, people in the Bluebird group were really great readers and I think I was a Sparrow or something. And so that was the lower level. But my brother and sister were very strong readers. But my mom, it didn't bother her at all, and she just found books that I was interested in. And once I had those books, I was so motivated, and I figured it out and I became a strong reader. But I didn't start a strong reader.
Sarah Enni: Actually many authors have said that to me. And I love now that graphic novels and stuff like that are more available to help. It's however you get into reading, you know, it's to be encouraged.
Ruta Sepetys: Yes. At the time there were these books, and I guess you'd call them records cause they were LP companions. So they were small books for kids. I'm thinking of one, it was called Bedtime for Francis. And so it had a book, but with a companion record, and you would put it on your record player and I would listen and follow along with the words and the pictures. And then when I heard the chime I knew I had to turn the page and that really helped me.
Sarah Enni: Cool. I really love that. Actually, my friend's mom was just telling me that she started to listen to audio books while she reads a book and I was like, "That's one way to guarantee you will never forget what's in that book." Thank you for getting into that a little bit. I want to ask also, when you say that your dad was in refugee camps, where was he? Was he moving around a bunch or where was he located at?
Ruta Sepetys: He was moving around a bit. He left Lithuania in 1940 and they traveled through Poland and made it into Austria. And so he was in a refugee "DP Camp.” A "displaced person refugee camp" in Linz, Austria for a couple of years. Then they moved around in the mountains for about a year. And then they settled in Bieber Rock, Germany into a displaced person camp that was primarily comprised of Baltic people. So they set up their own schools in there, and my dad lived in that camp for quite some time.
Sarah Enni: Interesting. It's fascinating because it seems you're a pan-European person, which is really great. And I really want to ask about music at home because of what you went on to do professionally for a little bit. So how was music a part of family life?
Ruta Sepetys: It was a huge part of life in a very casual way. My parents were always playing music. My father loved jazz. I grew up in Detroit. My mom loved Motown. And also during that time, this is gonna show my age, but the radio was really prominent. My mom always had the radio on in the kitchen. She was listening for news and things like that. And by extension I was always hearing music.
And so then I asked for a radio for Christmas, a little transistor, and I would listen to music in my bedroom. And it was really inspiring for me because within a song is a three minute story. And I used to love hearing those stories and trying to decipher, "Well, what's the story? And why did they choose this melody?" It made me very curious. And my mom, because she didn't have the opportunity to pursue lessons whether it be music or dance, she really wanted us to have lessons.
So my brother plays guitar, my sister plays piano and violin, and I took piano lessons. I was horrible, but I gravitated toward voice, and I took voice lessons for many years. I wasn't any good, but I enjoyed it!
Sarah Enni: As a singer in the car, I get it. I would love for you to lead me to how you... I know you studied abroad for college, but how did you decide to take music more seriously and lean towards that as a profession?
Ruta Sepetys: I wanted to be a writer. When I was a young child, I read James and the Giant Peach by Roald Dahl, and that was it. I loved stories and I thought, "This is a job? It's not a job. Are you kidding? With the opportunity, I want to be a storyteller!" But I wrote my first book, it wasn't well received, in elementary school,
And I thought, "Oh, this is harder than I thought." And also, "It's a bit scary. Hmm. You know, writing.. that can be hard and dangerous." And I thought, "Well, what else do I like?" And I knew that I loved music. And so I received a small scholarship, a vocal scholarship, to go to college. And I went to this independent college... sorry, a private college, in Michigan. And, I wasn't any good. And I thought, "Oh no!"
Okay so, "Writing… didn't turn out that I was very good, and music. Now what am I gonna do?" But I wanted to pursue the business of music. And so instead of majoring in music, I majored in business - in international finance, international management. And that's what I did. And after I graduated from college, I moved here to Los Angeles and spent 22 years working in the music business. Still helping artists and musicians tell stories, but through music. But they weren't my own stories. I was helping them mine and distill their own stories to put them into compositions, and albums, and different promotions, and things like that.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, international finance is a bit of a far cry from voice or music, certainly a different part of your brain even. How did you like it?
Ruta Sepetys: I loved it. And that probably came from my father. My father's an artist, and also a soccer player. And my dad went into the ad agency business and created a graphic design arm. And I saw that my father was a fine artist, and is a fine artist, but there was a business attached to this art. And I saw my dad as the CEO of a company, and an entrepreneur, owning his own company. Which I think is probably common for a lot of immigrants you know? They're entrepreneurs. And certainly for Lithuanians.
And so I was inspired by that and I had had no exposure to corporate America whatsoever. It was always owning; owning your own business. This is what Lithuanians do. And so you need to study finance. And I'm so glad that I did because I found that behind every artistic endeavor, whether it's podcasting, or writing novels, or being a musician, there's a business attached to it.
And yes, it would be wonderful if we didn't have to concern ourselves with that, and we could just make art and be creative. But inevitably, you have to look at the numbers once in a while. And I liked it. I liked that part of it. And people are quite surprised when they find out that I don't have a degree in English. That's something I would love. I would love to go back to school and get an MFA, because now I'm a musician who plays music, but hasn't had the opportunity to study music theory. And so I'm doing it very much by feel and rhythm and flow. I tell people I'm a rhythmic writer.
I learned in the music business, that we might not remember a sentence that one another says, but we’ll both get in the car today, we hear a song on the radio we haven't heard in five years, and we can sing every word to that song. And that's because melody and rhythm makes it memorable. So I have that down, I think. And as a child, even though I didn't know that's what was happening, I realized as an adult, "Oh, okay. So when I was eight years old, I could recite the opening monologue of the Twilight zone. Why was that?"
Because Rod Serling spoke with such commanding rhythm. And so now I put that into my books. And that's been sort of an education. Even though there is a rhythm to finance as well. And even when I was doing my exams, let's say in accounting or statistics, I would create a melody and hum a melody as I was doing my math equations, because I found that that rhythm and flow helped me, created these beats for me to go through.
It's so bizarre. But even in Fountains of Silence I have a rhythmic character, a little bellboy named Buttons, and he says, "Texas. Pow, pow!" And someone came to my book event two days ago in Dallas, and when they came through the signing line, after I gave them their book they said, "Texas. Pow pow!" And in my book, Salt to the Sea, I have a character, a shoe poet, who's a rhythmic character. But that's all by feel. So I'd love to go back and learn from someone who knows what they're doing, who can teach me.
Sarah Enni: I think there's something to writers and storytellers being lifelong learners. Because I'm also like, "Yeah, I'd go back to get bachelor's degrees for the rest of my life if I could."
Ruta Sepetys: I would too. And recently at an event I was at, at the university of Michigan, one of the directors said, "College is wasted on the college students." And it's so true. I would love to be back in the classroom. I'm happy to hear I'm not the only one.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, no, I'm like, "Oh, I'll go and study." And to me it also strikes me that, I know there's a lot that you can learn about history from finance too.
Ruta Sepetys: Absolutely.
Sarah Enni: All in the numbers, or the ability to understand what they mean.
Ruta Sepetys: Oh my goodness. History is the foundation of everything. Understanding the past gives us context to the present. And to your point, no one's ever brought this up, but this is so interesting. You're absolutely right. Think about finance and if we're studying economies, or economic collapse, or recession, or when the market is very strong, there's a history there. And history can be a little bit dangerous sometimes because there's this fragile tension that exists.
Some people are desperate to remember, while others are desperate to forget. And to your point, that is also in whether its financial markets or literature, this fragile tension exists. And I read a study recently that reported that history now ranks among the lowest three majors in the United States. That students, unfortunately, don't believe it's an employable major. And that terrifies me because what happens if we lose our historians? And what happens if we lose the historical analysis around events? Or to your point, business administration. And my work sits on the shoulders of nonfiction, and academic papers, and testimony, and memoir. So we can't lose our historians.
Sarah Enni: That's distressing. Okay, "Go be historians!" Or, get a history minor. History will help you with every aspect.
Ruta Sepetys: And that's what's happening. I think some colleges in the Midwest have dropped a history major, but some universities are creating hybrid majors. So it might be poly/psy and history, which makes sense. But really that creates an opportunity for historical fiction and books, because if history classes become more general, we won't have the opportunity to study some of these more obscure parts of history in depth. So then here comes a novel about a particular time period in history, and it's maybe read by book clubs and discussed, and that becomes sort of a pop-up classroom. And hopefully refers the readers back to those definitive texts and back to history.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, I think that's definitely been the case for my reading. I love historical fiction and then I'm like, "Wait. This is real?" I was watching Goodfellas for the first time and I didn't enjoy it, because halfway through I was like, "Wait a second. This is a real heist?" And then I just got my computer out and I turned off the movie and I was like, "I want to watch a documentary about this. I want to read books about this. I care about the real thing that happened and not this movie anymore."
Ruta Sepetys: But it was the movie that opened the door and led you back. And for me that is a dream. Even if someone puts down my book twenty-five percent of the way through it and said, "Oh, I'm interested in this, but I'm interested in what really happened." That is such a huge win. Oh my gosh. That would be great. You don't have to finish my book. Read about the real events!
Sarah Enni: Yeah, you turned someone's mind on. Not to dwell on numbers too long, but I want to hear more about managing and you starting your own company. Can you tell me exactly what does it mean to be a music manager?
Ruta Sepetys: Well, I have to say I really had an advantage that I question whether young people today would have. And the advantage certainly wasn't anything to do with my family. I mean, my family had nothing to do with the music business. I moved out to LA with sixty bucks and a typewriter. I didn't even have a car at first when I came out here. But what I did have, what I found, were amazing mentors. And these mentors were storytellers.
A songwriter, Desmond Child, who has sold over 300 million albums, I was his intern in Santa Monica. And sitting and watching him on a daily basis craft these songs from people's raw emotions, just what they were feeling at that moment. And then seeing them in the writing room, and then in the recording studio, and then hearing them in my car. This was amazing. And it was Desmond who said, "You need to start your own business."
And that terrified me because you're never ready to launch out on your own. But he encouraged me to, and I did. And I started a small artist management firm, very boutique. Which is a pretentious word for really what it was. And I represented some musicians, and guitar players, producers, a film composer, a rock band from orange County.
And I represented these same artists for years. And a big part of my job was sitting down with these people and saying, "All right, what's the story? And who are you in the story that is your life? And what do you want the story of your life to be?" Because if I was managing them, it wasn't just crisis management and bailing them out of jail when things went wrong.
It was also, "Okay, where do you want to be a year from now? Where do we want to be two years from now? Where do we want to be five years from now? Who are some of your creative heroes?" We put together a creative manifesto. And I would ask them to list some feelings about things. And those creative manifestos gave me so much insight into, for example, their heroes and their inspiration.
And I'll never forget one of my clients when I said, "Well, tell me about your greatest inspiration." And me assuming, cause we all make assumptions, that that would be a human being. And my client said that nature was his greatest inspiration. And that told me so much about him to then help carve a path, and chart a course, for his career. That was something that inspired him.
So any opportunity I could bring to him that involved nature, I also knew that then, he would respond to artwork and things. And so I loved it. It was storytelling. It's such an organic level. And also taught me the power of collaboration because oftentimes there's this myth that creativity is very solitary. And yes, right? I am a classic introvert. My greatest inspiration is solitude.
I'm one of those cliché writers. I even have a cabin in the woods. I mean, that's how cliché I am. But I learned that when energies are combined, oh my goodness, magical things can happen! And I saw it in the music business. I was in the room when it happened. And when a marginal idea became a magnificent idea. And sometimes even just through something funny, through brainstorming and thinking, "Oh that would never work." And then it was like, "Wait, maybe it will work." You know? And so this was super exciting. And all of that I learned through working in the music business. But the most important was how to distill story.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Yeah. Which is amazing. I'm actually so compelled by that idea of making a creative manifesto. I'm thinking about how often writers have to be their own managers. You have agents and things like that, but you sort of need to be thinking about a career as opposed to not thinking more broadly. You know what I mean? Like you're saying, learn the business, think about how you can manage yourself and think about a career. So I love the idea of making a creative manifesto.
Ruta Sepetys: Yes! I have a particular form of a manifesto that I've used for years. But what I've found is that, it doesn't matter if it's business, or if it's the arts, or if we use the example of a boat; you can be in a boat or you can be driving the boat. And I find that with some of my clients, for example, they weren't interested in driving the boat. However, they got to their destination faster and perhaps with a more satisfying result, if they were driving the boat instead of just letting the boat drive them. I've been in the same writing group for fifteen years and this is something we talk about a lot, because we're working with publishers, and we do have agents. They're our managers and helping us.
But every choice that we make, of the project that we're going to work on, are we just getting in someone else's boat and that boat is driving us? Or are we driving that boat? And I think a manifesto clarifying our sense of purpoe. I know that goals and things, that might frightened some people, but it can even be so big picture no ceiling. But when you have that, when you're given choices and decisions, it's easy to say, "Does this fit within the manifesto? And does this fit within what I've listed?" And it's so easy then, to navigate and say, "Oh, that's a great opportunity, but no, that's not going to get me where I want to go."
Sarah Enni: That is fascinating. I love that and I could talk about that all day, but there are some more things I want to get to. I do want to ask, and I might be wrong about this, that the transition from music to writing, and from LA to Nashville, are all a little bit wrapped up together. Did those things happen around the same time?
Ruta Sepetys: They did happen around the same time. I had an office in Santa Monica for many years. And then my brother, who also worked in the music business, he had moved to Nashville. He was a touring musician at one point, had made a record there, and really liked it. And there was a larger music scene developing in Nashville than just country music, even though I love country music.
And I thought, "You know, this could be a really great addition for me to have a Nashville office." So in 2002 I moved to Nashville. And my brother started working with this amazing country artist, Eric Church, who was a writer at the time and now plays arenas. And I enjoyed it so much that I closed the LA office and I moved to Nashville. And that was, for me, one of those time periods of I would call it, again it's gonna sound silly, but personal empowerment to make a decision and be so confident about it.
All of my clients were here in Los Angeles and I was leaving and saying, "I'm gonna move to Nashville and it's gonna work out." But there was something about it in the back of my mind, and in the depths of my heart, that told me that I was gonna be pursuing possibly my own creativity. And that it could be, pardon the pun, but the next chapter.
And so I moved to Nashville and I joined SCBWI, The Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators. I started to go to conferences and I started to write. And I was still working in the music business full-time. None of my clients knew that I was writing a book. And I tell this story; when Between Shades of Gray, my first book, was released one of the musicians called me from California, was in a bookstore and said, "This is the weirdest thing. Do you know there's an author with your same name?"
And I said, "Really? Open the back of the book. Is there a picture?" He's like, "Oh dude, this is bizarre. She looks just you." I said, "It is me!" And for a while I was living in these two different worlds and feeling sort of a bit guilty about it. Because of that phrase, "Be careful what you wish for.” All of a sudden I had released a book, and much to my shock, it became a New York Times Best Seller. And people started asking for more stories. And I thought, "Oh my goodness. This is a business that I have built, and with clients that I love dearly, and I'm involved in their creativity. And for 20 years helping them drive the boat.” So to speak.
And then I thought, "Well, you know what? If I'm meant to transition to writing full-time, there'll be a sign." I really believe in this. Because throughout my whole life, like I said, the decisions have been very clear because I have parameters of, "This is what I want. And this is what I'm working for."
And so I just said, "Well, it'll make itself clear." And when I wrote my first book, Between Shades of Gray, I knew that my father's extended family had been deported to Siberia, but I didn't have the story, they had passed away. So imagine how hard it was to write a book about that, not knowing my own family's story. So around the same time that I was really debating, "Do I try to write full-time?" I mean really? Writing totalitarianism for young adults? That's lucrative, right?
And I thought, "Oh no! Well, let's see, maybe there'll just be a sign. Something will happen." Well, oh my gosh. It's a strange phenomenon. I feel you go searching for story, and the universe responds and story comes searching for you. And about the time that I put out that prompt like, "Well, let's see what happens. Am I meant to write full-time?"
A man called me from Chicago. He had been cleaning out the basement of a Lithuanian church and found a trunk that belonged to a priest. And he said, "Ruta in the trunk was a folder with your grandfather's name on it." I said, "Oh, what's in the folder?" He said, "Nine letters and six photos of your family in Siberia. I found your story." And after releasing this book, he only recognized the name on the folder because of the book.
And so I started this business hoping to help other people tell their stories through music, through books. And now it's brought me my own story. And that was so powerful. I was like, "Oh my gosh I'm doing this!" And I was whispering, "I quit, I quit, I quit." But then I had to go to my clients and I said, "My publisher is suggesting that I give them more time." And do you know every single one of them? And I know the myths about musicians and rock stars, that they're so selfish. These people said, "Oh, if you don't do this, we're gonna kill you." They were so great. They were so great. And last night at the event, there were so many of them there. It was amazing. It was great. They're part of my story.
Sarah Enni: And I think it's so interesting to see someone enable other people to be creative in this way. And then when something finally comes around, to be able to recognize like, "Oh, this is what this is. And now I'm so prepared to move forward with it."
Ruta Sepetys: But now it's just part of who I am. For example, I have a friend, Andrew Maraniss, who writes for Philomel my publisher as well (Strong Inside and Games of Deception). Andrew lives in Nashville, published an adult book that was very successful and I said, "Andrew, this needs to be adapted for young adults." And I went to my publisher, and I don't manage Andrew Maraniss, it's purely out of my enthusiasm. I said, "You guys should check this out." And now Andrew's doing it. And there's all this demand for his book and I love it! I think I love helping people more than I love helping myself.
Sarah Enni: Well there's an instinct to it, right? I have that instinct too. When a friend tells me something, I just want to be like, "Okay. Do this, this, and this. And this is another thing to do." I can't... it's an impulse.
Ruta Sepetys: It is, it is. And I feel bad cause maybe sometimes it's just too pushy. But I get so excited when I see something that I think, "Oh my goodness, this person is so talented. I just want to help them!"
Sarah Enni: Sometimes hearing that gives people the boost of confidence that they need to take that step. There's a place for it. Sometimes I have to pull myself back, but...
Ruta Sepetys: Yeah, same. I'm learning.
Sarah Enni: You've mentioned Between Shades of Gray, before we get much further in talking about that, do you mind pitching that book for us?
Ruta Sepetys: Between Shades of Gray? Yes! Between Shades of Gray tells the story of a 15 year old Lithuanian artist who's arrested with her mother and younger brother and deported by the Soviet secret police to Siberia. And the book chronicles, not only the girls struggle to survive, but her struggle to retain faith in mankind amidst this terror. You know, it's a lottery of life or death and who survives.
Sarah Enni: And do you mind sharing the origin story of the book? Cause that factors into this time of your life too, I think.
Ruta Sepetys: Sure, of Between Shades of Gray?
Sarah Enni: Yes.
Ruta Sepetys: So as I mentioned, I was constantly asking my music clients, "Hey, what's your story?" And one day one of them turned the tables on me and said, "All right, Ruta, twenty years, what's the story?" They said, "We want to know what's your story?" And I said, "Oh, I'm Lithuanian." And he had no idea what that was. He said, "Oh, I'm so sorry. How long have you had that?" Or people say like, "Oh, Lithuanians, so you're not Catholic?" And I'm like, "No, it's not a religion."
Sarah Enni: It's not Lutheran.
Ruta Sepetys: Yes, exactly. But people, understandably, they don't know that much about Lithuania. It wasn't on a map for 50 years. It was a Soviet occupied country. And so one of my clients toured in Lithuania and I went along. And in meeting my father's relatives, I learned there was so much to my own story that I didn't know. Although I knew my father was a refugee, my father himself was not told that when he fled the country my grandfather, his extended family, was deported.
My grandparents didn't want him to feel survivor guilt and that he was a child. They said, "This was not your burden." But in learning that I just thought, "If this is part of my family history and my heritage, and I don't know about this communist terror, so much of the world probably doesn't know about it."
And I was inspired to write a book. And the idea came pretty quickly. One girl, her dream of freedom, and a voice to speak for millions of victims of communism who never had a chance to tell their story. And that became Between Shades of Gray. Which is often confused with 50 Shades of Gray.
Sarah Enni: You did write this really great op-ed for NPR about that. Do you mind? This is just a funny story.
Ruta Sepetys: Yeah, it is a funny story. So Between Shades of Gray came out and my mother, who at the time was in her late seventies, she called me and she said, "You have a problem." I said, "What's the problem?" She said, "There's another book that's called Shades of Gray. It's just come out..” (E.L. James’s 50 Shades of Grey). And I said, "Mom, imagine how many books have the same titles? How many songs have the same titles? It's no big deal." She said, "This is a big deal." I said, "Why?" And then she told me and I thought, "Oh man, Lithuania is never gonna look so sexy."
And I knew immediately what was gonna happen and that people would buy my book by accident. And we started seeing that first on the Kindle, because people wanted to read 50 Shades of Gray, but perhaps they didn't want to be seen buying it in public. So they bought it on an e-Reader and all of a sudden my sales jumped and people said, "Oh, you must be so upset." No, I wasn't. First I wasn't upset because if something brings people to books, I have no problem with that, if they're reading. And so I thought, "Okay." But then I thought, "Wow. They come for a spanking and they're getting a story about Joseph Stalin."
And I had some beautiful emails from people who said, "I'm gonna be very honest. I bought the wrong Shade of Gray, but you know what? I started reading and I didn't put the book down. And I really felt so accomplished," they said, "That I learned something." And that was really great. But it continues. The book was released nine years ago, it's been nine years ago. But now that the film has come out, the film adaptation Ashes in the Snow, there's also a film tie-in. And I think that's easier for schools to take. Because imagine when kids were going home, seventh graders, and parents saw Shades of Gray in their book bag?
Sarah Enni: It's just one of those publishing coincidences.
Ruta Sepetys: Yes, but I have to tell you, I was holding my breath with my other books. I was like, "Oh no. Could there be...?"
Sarah Enni: That would be like, "What kind of magic are you creating here?"
Ruta Sepetys: Yeah. Dark magic.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, exactly! Okay, so Between Shades of Gray, and Salt to the Sea, I'm gonna group those together because they're both World War Two stories, though a little different. I'll have you give more detail about Salt to the Sea in a moment. But of course, all of your books involve so much research. I'm interested in the tie-in between storytelling and hearing your dad's story, and being interested in your own family's story, and the concept of generational trauma for people who are refugees and who are displaced.
And, of course, what your grandfather went through under communism. Generational trauma it's actually scientifically proven now and we know it's real. In addition to that, you also went out and saw other people's stories and took on even more of real people's pain and lived experiences. I'm so curious about what that was like for you, and how you thought about maybe a calling or duty to tell other people's stories?
Ruta Sepetys: Yes. And I think it was something that I underestimated when I began this process. Because working in music and managing artists, yes I tried to be compassionate and things. But to your point about generational trauma, I was speaking to human beings who had been condemned to death. Innocent human beings. And had to reconcile that that was their sentence.
That they received this sentence - fifteen years in Siberia - and they survived. And so, although there is generational trauma, what is often I feel overlooked is also generational joy and generational gratitude. Because when you face this beast of war, or this beast of totalitarianism, and come out on the other side, yes, you have lost. But if along the way you've lost… these people tell me that if they felt loss, it occurred to them it's because they loved.
And that's what made them human. The fact that they felt sadness, at some point they felt, "Well, wait a minute, that means I did love something." Some of these people told me that their suffering had been their greatest spiritual teacher. So at the same time that I'm speaking with people and families about these different experiences, wow, the overwhelming takeaway was of gratitude.
And it really put me in my place because I thought, "How in the world can I ever justify these small things that might annoy me during the day when these human beings are telling me the stories?" The harder thing for me to get over, which I believe is a component of generational trauma, is a desire for anonymity. This fear, which is driven by fear. People... let's take Between Shades of Gray and my new novel, The Fountains of Silence. In Between Shades of Gray people who were deported to Siberia.
And if they survived and returned, if they spoke of Siberia, they were deported again. They couldn't speak of this. And so they lived with the secret for fifty years. In The Fountains of Silence, after the Spanish Civil War, the families who opposed Franco during the war were plunged into silence. They were so fearful to speak of it. A woman told me she had a cardboard father. She wasn't even allowed to put her father's photo on the wall.
So she took the frame apart and took that piece of cardboard with the photo and put it in the bedside table. And that's how these people lived. And they didn't want to talk about it, they didn't want people to know that they were associated with a Spanish Republican family who had opposed Franco. And so this request for anonymity is also part of this generational trauma. Feeling that you can't step in and take ownership of your own history.
And what does that do? I asked the questions when I was writing Fountains of Silence, “Does silence truly heal pain, or does it just prolong it?” And I have seen over the last nine years, with Between Shades of Gray, the people who I interviewed who insisted, "You cannot put my name in this book. You can't tell anyone that you have spoken to me."
So I created these characters; the man who wound his watch, the girl with the dolly, to respect this request for anonymity. But now how over the years, because readers have read their story in all these countries and are doing school projects, or making YouTube videos, it has given these people courage to take ownership. And that's part of healing. And so when you think of generational trauma, what surprises me is we often think that that healing has to come within our own family.
But no, sometimes it's the gift of an outsider who brings us that healing. And that's the power of books and the power of story. But for me, as I'm researching the stories, it's so painful. As I explained, I want to help everyone. And I lay awake at night thinking of the stories.
And so when I write a book, instead of researching and putting it aside and then saying, "Okay, my research is done, I'm gonna start writing." I research and write at the same time because I fear that if I do it separately, I'm gonna lose the emotional momentum of what I'm feeling. And if I am crying with a survivor, or with the family member of a victim, out of respect for them and this experience, I want to put that emotion into the text so it will be as authentic as possible.
So after I interview someone, I sit outside and hand write these notes of the emotional hits. And one of those emotional hits became the first line of Between Shades of Gray. I was interviewing a woman and she was just talking about the injustice of it all and how her family had suffered such trauma. And she said, "We were innocent. My dad was a college professor. They broke into our house. They took my dad."
And she said, "They grabbed me out of bed." And she said, "Ruta, do you understand? They took me in my nightgown." And "they took me in my nightgown" became the first line of the book. So I try to live within this generational trauma, but to move from reaction to observation. Because if I just stay that tightly within it, I'll be a mess.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. I was gonna say that's what occurs to me, especially coming from the perspective of other writers who might want to write historical fiction, just thinking about how you care for yourself when you are dealing with very extreme stories.
Ruta Sepetys: Right. Also the funny thing is people, because some of the stories I write are extreme, they think that I'm going to be a very intense and serious person. But what I've found is that I have to give myself the opportunity to laugh. I have to give myself the opportunity to move. Meaning, I am laughing and I'm dancing every single day.
And people think, "What's wrong with you? Do you have a split personality?" No! I've learned, even from when I was a child, that if I'm hurting, sometimes the best shield can be humor. The best shield for hurt - because I'm laughing and with one hand flapping and saying, "Look here, look here." And my other hand is over my heart saying, "Don't look here." So laughter that's a huge component of what I try to do.
Sarah Enni: Seeking out to help counter...
Ruta Sepetys: Seeking out humor. And I know that's what drew me to my amazing spouse. He's really funny and we need that laughter in life, you know?
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Well we have just about ten to fifteen minutes left, so I'm gonna jump to Fountains of Silence. So we can get into that. Do you mind pitching that book for us?
Ruta Sepetys: Sure. The Fountains of Silence is set in 1957 in Madrid, Spain during the dictatorship of Francisco Franco. And it follows the story of 18 year old Daniel Matheson, the son of a Texas oil Barron, who comes to Madrid with his parents. And in Madrid, he meets Anna, a girl who's working at the hotel. And together Daniel and Anna unknowingly embark upon a journey that puts both of their lives in danger.
And when I told people, "Oh, I'm writing a book, it's set in Madrid during the dictatorship of Franco." There were a couple people who said, "Oh, I love Madrid. I've been. But remind me who was Franco?" And this really fascinated me because I myself, and look I was steeped in dictators with whether it was Salt to the Sea with Hitler, and Stalin in Between Shades of Gray. And yet Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, we know the villain's names… we teach them. Why don't we know more about Franco?
Sarah Enni: And it lasted for so long.
Ruta Sepetys: Thirty Six years.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. And incredibly recently. I mean, I myself was woefully under... I did not know.
Ruta Sepetys: But it just begs the question, what determines how history is preserved and recalled? Why do some of these stories become part of our collective consciousness and other parts of history remain hidden. And sometimes I tell students, especially middle schoolers, they get excited. I'm like, "What is history hiding from us?" They're like, "What?" Like, "We need to do the research." Exactly, what's the answer?
Sarah Enni: I love that you just were talking about writing and researching at the same time. That's fascinating. I didn't Know that that was your process. This book took you I think, seven or eight years?
Ruta Sepetys: Seven years!
Sarah Enni: So I had imagined many of those years being really just focused on research. But it sounds like it was just seven years of trying to do both at the same time? Or how did that process work?
Ruta Sepetys: It was, and I've explained to other people that my three other books contain threads of my personal family history. So I could write those books from the inside out. At least I had a knowledge of the culture. But for this, I'm not Spanish and I don't speak Spanish. And the language is the key to the soul of the culture.
So I had to write this book from the outside in. I spoke to my publisher in Spain, first of all to request permission and get their opinion, because what right do we have to history other than our own? And I thought, “If I want to do this, it's gonna take me a long time, and I have to do it well.” And they said, "Ruta, we think you should do it.” Sometimes looking at history from a different altitude can be interesting.
So immediately I started my research. And knowing I was gonna have to write from the outside in, told me it was gonna have to be an American in Spain. So early parts of my research were dedicated to that. Looking at the infusion of American business in Spain during a dictatorship. Franco didn't do business with other countries, but he was doing business with the United States. Why?
And going into the diplomatic archives, and the presidential archives, and seeing the arguments on record. Because some people were saying, "Are we helping the Spanish people or are we helping the dictatorship?" And that was fascinating to me. And so yeah, I started to write it at the exact moment that I started to research .
Sarah Enni: It's so fascinating. And the book throughout has those conversations you're saying is interstitial, straight from the archive dialogue. Harry Truman is in there a bunch, and I thought that added so much, it was so fascinating. Just reminders like,"Oh, I'm reading fiction, but it's so not. It's so vivid and so real."
Ruta Sepetys: Thank you. And the diplomatic archives. These American diplomats who were in Spain in the fifties, first of all, some of them were so badly behaved and that made for a fascinating, fascinating read.
Sarah Enni: They were so spicy.
Ruta Sepetys: They were spicy! And I thought, "Oh my goodness. And how did these people get these positions?" And then, “What in the world made them go on record during these oral history interviews?” They just thought, "Oh, I'm just gonna tell all these stories." But then I had to decide what serves the history. And because I often say, “I write the books, but history writes my stories.” I can't even look at it from a point of view of, what information serves my story? No. What serves the history, and what's gonna give us a balanced approach, and not just tell one single story? Because history has many angles, I think.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. And you've already brought it up, and it's something that I was thinking about as a thread through your books is, it's sort of like railing against silence. Literally telling the stories is the opposite of being silenced. And learning about, what is it called? The Pact of Silence?
Ruta Sepetys: Oh! The Pact to Forgetting.
Sarah Enni: The Pact to Forgetting. Do you mind just telling...?
Ruta Sepetys: Yes. So, imagine, it's 1975 and Franco dies. Spain has been living under this dictatorship for thirty six years and now has the Herculean task of trying to transition to a successful democracy. And it was so fragile that they thought, "If we start prosecuting thirty six years of alleged offenses, it could plunge the country into another civil war." So they agreed to pass an Amnesty Law in 1977 and adopt what is now known as The Pact of Forgetting. That they would agree to forget.
But again, this begs the question, what happens if we forget our history? And I understand this was transitional. This was a transitional period. But I think that silence sometimes breeds speculation. And people, if they don't have the story, they will make up their own. And oftentimes that creates a false narrative or misjudgment. It's not done on purpose, but we try to fill in the blanks and it's almost like, "Ooh, what are they not saying?"
And so we make up these stories. And that's the one disadvantage I think. And of course, some people prefer to remain silent. As I've said, there's this fragile tension between history and memory. Some are desperate to remember, others are desperate to forget. We have to respect that. If I had grandparents who wanted to adopt a Pact of Forgetting about the Soviet occupation, it was so painful that they thought, "Don't do this." And so we have to respect that.
But if there is a way that we can share a human beings story, when they see their story recognized, we can help restore a piece of human dignity. And that's, again, a power of books. Because sometimes history is boring but all of a sudden, through a character and a story, history becomes human. And I get emails from people who say, "How did you know this is my story? And I've never told a soul." And even if they never tell a soul, I can tell through the email that there's this validation. Suddenly the world is less lonely, you know? "No one understood. And no one had a story like mine. No one experienced this." And then suddenly you realize, "Oh, there are others."
Sarah Enni: Well, I think we're seeing in the news right now that when one person speaks up, then other people feel brave enough to share their story, or contribute to a narrative that's unfolding. And people discovering what's true and adding facts, which I'm a big fan of. And speaking of this, you obviously love history, and filling up with facts and people's true stories and doing the diligent work of finding out what really happened, but you choose to express it in fiction. And you've talked about the power of story, but it just strikes me, do you ever feel any pull towards actually doing nonfiction, or how do you think about that?
Ruta Sepetys: I don't feel the pull toward nonfiction. But mainly because first of all as I said, I rely so heavily on these texts, dissertations, academic papers that are written by historians. And I know that I'm not a historian. So I don't feel qualified to write nonfiction about these topics. But the larger reason is because if I approached a topic through nonfiction, I might be limited to one family's story thread. But in writing fiction, for The Fountains of Silence, I can interview hundreds of people and I can pull threads let's say from twenty different human beings, and weave them into one character.
And that's important to me because I feel that then I'm representing a broader range of human experience. And in my first novel, Between Shades of Gray, there were countless camps, deportation camps, death camps, labor camps, and by pulling stories, hopefully I'm representing these threads of human experience that might apply to many different people. So that's one of the reasons I get to represent a broader range of human experience. And in doing so, hopefully present a more balanced portrayal, instead of just picking one side of history. Because it's never black and white, never. And that's what inspired the title Between Shades of Gray for my first book. And that's the other thing, if I did write nonfiction, it might be more black and white.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, that's a really interesting point. And you always have multiple narrators as well to see all of the prism of one...
Ruta Sepetys: In Salt to the Sea and in Fountains of Silence, I have multiple characters. Between Shades of Gray one narrator. And the novel that I am writing now is also first-person and a single narrator. And Fountains of Silence is my only novel in third person.
Sarah Enni: How did you like that?
Ruta Sepetys: I loved the freedom of it, but it was challenging for me. It was really challenging. Did I wanna write omniscient? Did I wanna write third-person close? And again, remember, I have no formal training. I have not studied this. So it was as if I were blindfolded. Again, writing and reading everything aloud, listening for rhythm and flow. Which is omniscient or close... is this better? So it was really a struggle.
Sarah Enni: That's really interesting. Well, you did a great job!
Ruta Sepetys: Thank you.
Sarah Enni: So I want to ask about what you're doing next, but I would be remiss not to ask you about the exhumation of Franco that is happening literally today as we record this. Do you mind telling listeners? I was fascinated. As soon as I read your book, I've learned more about it, and it's happening. So do you mind talking about Valley of the Fallen?
Ruta Sepetys: Yes. And also, please understand that I'm coming at this from the viewpoint of an outsider. And outsiders, sometimes are we unreliable observers? You know? I have to remind myself that maybe it's infused by opinion rather than just fact. There are so many different sides to this. But during Franco's dictatorship, he decided to build what is known as The Valley of the Fallen, which was an enormous financial undertaking.
Millions of dollars, during a time when Spain was suffering from extreme poverty. Millions of dollars were being poured into this monument, which people thought would become a monument to Franco. And what is also painful about this history of The Valley of the Fallen is it was built by the prisoners of the Spanish Civil War. And although The Valley of the Fallen contains graves, let's say thirty thousand people, victims on both sides.
So on the Franco side and the Spanish Republican side, it's particularly painful because people's relatives died building The Valley of the Fallen. Some people have no idea where their relatives even are. Are they at the Valley? And then when Franco died, he was buried. His tomb is there at Valley of the Fallen. The cross is so massive, you can see it from miles away.
Sarah Enni: It's bigger than the Eiffel tower.
Ruta Sepetys: It's bigger than the Eiffel tower. And imagine this, if we looked out the window and we saw this huge cross that could be seen from miles away, that was a monument to Hitler? That would be, it would be shocking and unacceptable. And I think for Franco, because he's lived for thirty six years, I think the legacy of his dictatorship changed a bit near the end of his life. Some people said, "Oh, well he's a benevolent dictator." But for some of these families it was still so painful to be faced with this.
And then there are tourists who go to The Valley of the Fallen. But some people in Spain felt, "Wait. The story is not really being reflected here." And it was a constant source of pain. And so after many years there was discussion, "Do we move Franco?" And then also, how does that affect the Pact of Forgetting? If we've agreed to forget, all of a sudden literally digging up history.
Sarah Enni: Monuments are the opposite of forgetting.
Ruta Sepetys: Yes, exactly. And if we do exhume Franco, then have we broken our Pact of Forgetting? But I applaud Spain for doing this because, as the saying goes, “A wound that's not properly cleaned can't heal.” And so for me, even though yes, it's so painful, it's painful for people on both sides. Imagine for Franco's family. I mean this is painful for both sides. So if we get to a point where we can move from reaction to reflection and maybe once Franco is moved, we can get to that point of reflection.
And why is that important that we're reflecting and not reacting? Because maybe at that point, old dividing lines will begin to fade, and we can get to the point where history no longer sits between us or stands between us, but flows through us. And I think for some people, moving Franco will help that flow rather than be a barrier. I hope. And again, am I idealistic? Yes. But it's just fascinating and the timing is just surreal. And someone said, "Oh, this is amazing that you timed the release of your novel with Franco's exhumation from The Valley of the Fallen." I said, "No, you don't understand." I have chills. It feels ghostly to me that this is happening.
Sarah Enni: Pretty wild and fascinating. And I think I read your book, and then was reading these articles, and I was like, "Oh, I really understand what we're talking about." Which is great.
Ruta Sepetys: That's such a huge compliment. Honestly. That is such a great compliment.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, it was so fun. So I'll let you go in a couple of minutes. I'm gonna ask about what's coming up next, and then ask for advice, and then we can wrap up. So I'm interested both in what you're writing about next, and also how you choose these projects when you know the enormous amount of work that goes into writing historical fiction? You know, seven years for this one book! Then what makes a book stand out as, “This is the one to tackle next?”
Ruta Sepetys: I would say that the creative catalyst for me comes from some sort of element of compassion. With Fountains of Silence, when I toured for Between Shades of Gray, the people in Spain were so compassionate about these Baltic victims and what happened, and they were crying. And so it made me want to reciprocate and say, "Well, what's your story?"
And that's how I learned of the pain that they were suffering, and how many years they had suffered in silence. And that made me want to look into it. And the new book that I'm working on ties into this question. Thanks to Penguin Young Readers Group, my books are published in over sixty countries, and I have the good fortune to be able to tour. And when I toured Romania, I was so shocked at how little I knew about the plight of the Romanian people. And how the Soviets had sort of fed us this propaganda. I mean terrible statements, inappropriate language, you know that, "Oh, Romanians are gypsies."
And the narrative of the orphanages in Romania that began to define the country and the people. And when I toured in Romania, I learned there is so much more to it. And the plight of the people was particularly terrifying because in other countries, let's take Lithuania or even Poland, there was a unity in victimhood. There was a solidarity.
In Romania, the regime recruited people to inform on one another and it's estimated that one in every six human beings was an informer. So there was no unity, there was no solidarity, there was pure fear. And they recruited teenagers into a spy network, convincing them that it would benefit their family if they did. And these poor teens were responsible, in some cases, for their parent's death, for the death of their teachers, of their grandparents, punishment, imprisonment. And so I'm writing about this teen spy network in Romania just prior to the revolution.
Sarah Enni: Wow. That sounds amazing!
Ruta Sepetys: The story and the Romanian people are so amazing. It's so amazing. I mean, talk about resilience. Oh my goodness.
Sarah Enni: And I know that for Fountains of Silence, you even rented an apartment in Madrid at one point and went back and forth. Are you going back and forth?
Ruta Sepetys: I'm going back and forth to Romania. My latest trip was not only to Bucharest, but also to Transylvania, to that region. Oh my goodness. So beautiful. And again, like I've said, history has many angles. You interview someone in the big city and you get one angle of history. You go out into the countryside, or into the mountains, and the story changes. And it's not that one is true and one is untrue, but the human experience is different. And I want to represent those different human experiences.
So that's crucial. My next trip will be in a couple months. I just keep going back and forth. And I couldn't do this work without the help of my foreign publishers who lead me to interpreters. I don't speak Romanian. I don't speak Spanish. That lead me to research sources. And inevitably when I interview someone I say, "Well, is there anyone else that you think might be interested in sharing something? Or you think that I should speak to?" Inevitably I'll get 10 names and this just keeps getting bigger and bigger.
Sarah Enni: Wow. And I want to direct people to, you did this wonderful interview with Yin Chang of 88 Cups of Tea. The only reason I didn't grill you about interviewing all day, which I am obsessed with and could talk about, is that you did a great interview with her about that. So I'll make sure people are linked to that. How you interview people cause it was a really great discussion.
This has been so amazing. We have to wrap up, but I want to ask for advice. So I'd love for you to just share with people, for anyone that's interested in writing historical fiction. To me it seems daunting and a little scary, but it's so fascinating. What would you say to someone who's maybe interested in tackling a project like that?
Ruta Sepetys: I would say, first of all, give yourself permission to fail. And what do I mean by fail? I don't mean to get something wrong. But just that your first draft, they're gonna be clunky, and they're gonna be ugly, and they're gonna be imperfect. But there's perfection in imperfection. So give yourself the permission to fail.
But then to begin the process, to make it easier, mine your own personal history and do that through a way... if any of your listeners, if their relatives are still alive, parents, grandparents, extended family members, interview them with broad questions. Meaning ask them to recall sense memories. "What did it smell like in your elementary school?" Or, "So you're looking out the kitchen window of the house you grew up in. What did you see?"
And those kinds of interviews, interviewing your family first, will help you realize what people respond to. What's an easy in-road to an interview? But in the process you're collecting your own family archival information. Start there because I'm fascinated with hidden history and historical fiction. But the most important story we can find and preserve is our own.
So I would say, absolutely start there. Pull out that old box of photos, sit with relatives, and say, "Who is this in this picture?" Label those photos and that'll create this curiosity that then will help you as you're moving along with someone else's story - telling someone else's story.
Sarah Enni: And that's such a great piece of advice too cause there's a special art to interviewing someone when you're about to write a fiction account as opposed to a nonfiction account. So you can really indulge in like, "What food did you eat?" This kind of stuff.
Ruta Sepetys: And, "What do you think people don't understand about this time period? What was a secret dream that you would have?" Or, "Tell me about someone else." Because in nonfiction, there's no speculation. But in fiction they can say, "Well, you know, that neighbor woman, I always suspected that she was..." You know? And these suspicions feed fictional threads. Just how someone was thinking.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, well I love that! Ruta, this has been such a delight. Thank you.
Ruta Sepetys: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
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