First Draft Episode #274: Justin Reynolds
October 6, 2020
Listen to the episode
Justin Reynolds, author of The Opposite of Always, talks about his new young adult contemporary novel, Early Departures.
This episode is brought to you by Everything I Thought I Knew, a new young adult novel from Shannon Takoaka out from Candlewick Press October 13th. Eight months after 17 year old Chloe has a heart transplant everything is different. Most notably vivid, recurring nightmares about crashing a motorcycle in a tunnel and memories of people and places she doesn't recognize. As Chloe searches for answers what she learns will lead her to question everything she thought she knew about life, death, love, identity, and the true nature of reality. Everything I Thought I Knew by Shannon Takoaka comes out from Candlewick Press on October 13th.
Welcome to First Draft with me, Sarah Enni. This week I'm talking to Justin Reynolds, author of The Opposite of Always here to discuss his new young adult contemporary novel Early Departures. I always love talking to Justin. I love what he had to say in this conversation about books as small miracles, key stages at which mentors gave him the affirmation he needed, about Justin writing his debut novel and Early Departures as a way to get out of an emotional tailspin. And the line between self-sacrifice and self-destruction. Yeah, it's a deep one this week, you're in for it.
Everything Justin and I talk about on today's episode can be found in the show notes. First Draft participates in affiliate programs, specifically bookshop.org. That means if you shop for the links on FirstDraftPod.com, it helps to support the show and independent bookstores at no additional cost to you. If you'd like to donate directly to First Draft either on a one-time or monthly basis, you can do that @Paypal.me/FirstDraft.pod.
Track changes, the First Draft mini-series covering all the steps from how your book goes from a laptop to the bookshelf, is now complete. You can hear the entire series - nine episodes plus four bonus episodes - @FirstDraftPod.com/TrackChanges. And if that wasn't enough publishing insight for you, I've got you covered, it wasn't enough for me either. The Track Changes newsletter continues where every Friday I'm sharing more of the information I gathered in researching for the project, as well as ongoing news updates, exclusive interviews, and more original reporting from me on various and sundry things that are interesting to writers.
You can sign up for a 30-day free trial of the newsletter and learn more about both Track Changes projects @FirstDraftPod.com/TrackChanges.
Okay, now please sit back, relax and enjoy my conversation with Justin Reynolds.
Sarah Enni: So hi Justin, how are you?
Justin Reynolds: Oh, I'm well, how are you doing Sarah?
Sarah Enni: I'm doing pretty good. You and I have gotten the chance to talk earlier this summer. We did a mailbag episode that listeners should definitely check out, you gave a lot of great advice on that episode. But I'm excited, we get to do the actual legit OG full First Draft interview today.
Justin Reynolds: Yes, I made it. I feel like I've arrived officially. I'm excited. I love the podcast.
Sarah Enni: I can't believe we haven't made it happen before now. I'm just so excited. But I like to start at the very beginning. So I'd love to hear about where you were born and raised.
Justin Reynolds: I was born and raised just outside of Cleveland, Ohio, and it was just me and my younger sister. And the thing about growing up in Ohio was that I feel like, maybe it's just because I don't have anything to compare it to in terms of childhood, but in the Midwest it was like either you were outside or if you were inside, you were probably like reading a book. And in our household, my mom was a teacher at one point and then later on went on to become a librarian, and so she was very adamant that we were gonna be readers. There was no choice.
In fact, even with television, we were allowed one hour of television a day at the most, and a half hour of it had to be educational, like Reading Rainbow or something like that, and the other half hour was ours. So it's like Saved By the Bell it is, or whatever I was watching back then - getting my fix. And so it was interesting. Primarily a lot of my childhood was just reading books.
Sarah Enni: Do you remember what kinds of stories you were drawn to or what all were you mainlining?
Justin Reynolds: I read a lot of John Grisham (author of The Firm, Camino Winds and many more). When I found John Grisham, just because the pacing was crazy, and I didn't read up to that point. I hadn't read a lot of books that were plot centric. And he's a master of plotting. And now that I know who he is, and obviously an amazing career, when I read an interview and she's talking about just how meticulous his plotting is. And he has a system, a whole formula that allows him to put out the kind of material that he does, as often as he does. And so those books, I used to feast on those books. And then I also read Michael Crichton. I read so much Michael Crichton growing up (author of Sphere, Jurassic Park, and many more).
Sarah Enni: I was gonna bring him up because it seems like for the kind of things that you write, he does a lot of that speculative set in our world stuff.
Justin Reynolds: My favorite book of his growing up was Sphere. I thought that that book did a lot of the things that I'm interested in in that it asked big questions on an individual basis. Like what drives us as individual people versus the good of the whole? And I think that's a question that I'm constantly battling in my own work. Like what's good for us and for our small community and for our family versus what's good for everyone for the world?
And a lot of times those two things are in conflict and there's tension there. And so I think Michael Crichton was a master of incorporating the speculative elements into a story. He was asking and wrestling with these big questions about life and about the purpose of life and why we're here. And what's ethical, what kind of lives should we lead? And, of course, a lot of that has to do with his medical background.
But I think then on top of that, he understood how then to marry that with a very intriguing plot. So I think that was a component that had been missing when I started writing with my work earlier. I was writing basically Seinfeld episodes. I just wanted to have a lot of dialogue and conversation that went nowhere. But then I realized, "Okay, if I want to do a little bit more, I probably need to do some Michael Crichton, John Grisham to my stories."
Sarah Enni: Bring in that element. Well, let me ask about that, about writing. So obviously you've been a lifelong reader, but when did expressing yourself through writing kind of come in?
Justin Reynolds: So as far as writing, I always wanted to be a writer. My mom has the paper from kindergarten, that big green jumbo lined paper that you wrote with an impossibly large pencils. I said that, "When I grow up, I want to be a writer." And she still has that. And I think I always kinda knew that I wanted that. I knew that there were people that were responsible for these things that I was holding in my hand that I found to be like small miracles. And I didn't understand, of course, how they were made and who was doing it and how the decisions were made as to what book ended up on shelves. But I was like, "I just want to be a part of the magic that makes this thing happen."
Sarah Enni: Well, I want to ask about that because you went into a lot of different jobs. You had a blurb on your website about NASA intern, night security guard, pest control operator, and then eventually being a registered nurse for a period of time. So tell me about experimenting with all these kinds of different careers. And I'm also interested in how writing was still a part of your life, or was it while you were doing that?
Justin Reynolds: I kind of lucked out in that there were always like breadcrumbs along the way to let me know that I had a little bit of ability and that I just needed to figure out how to make it viable. I remember there was this competition, Power of the Pen, that I did in high school. I made it to like state finals and I did pretty well there. And that was like, you go into a room, they give you a prompt, and you write a story in like 30 minutes. And then they'd have three judges in the room. They'd judge your stories. And you just kinda got points based on it.
And I won local. I think I won a regional. And then we just kept going and going. And I think we took a team of like three or four of us with my English teacher. And that confirmed at that point in time when I needed it the most, that I could maybe do something with it.
And then that kind of was just the case that always kind of happened. Then I was taking college classes when I was in high school and one of my professors is a poet, a renowned poet, and he wrote a lot about his experiences in the Vietnam War. And he took a special interest in me. And that was like the next step I needed. Somebody who was doing something that I respected and who was also respected by his peers, and by the world, and then saw something in my work. And my work was decent but it was also very unpolished and there were a lot of rules.
Early on I was also interested in poetry as well. And I hadn't decided that I just wanted to do prose. And so I was trying to learn even just the rules of poetry. And I remember he was so much about like, "You kind of have to know how things work before you can deviate and break the rules. You want to make informed choices so that it matters." So I think I always had those things kind of leading up to it.
But then there came a period of time in which I guess reality kind of set in. I think I was 19 or 20 when I finished the first book I ever wrote and it was called The Improvisational Distance and I sent it out. And back in the day, again, you couldn't email people. So I had to print this huge book out, 450 pages or wherever it was. And I actually got it bound at Office Max. I had it put into a volume.
Sarah Enni: Which, by the way, is not cheap!
Justin Reynolds: Not cheat at all, especially at 19 and 20 and no money. So I was doing that. And then I got Jeff Herman's Guide to Agents or whatever it was. And I remember going through that book and they had every type of genre and then they'd have the name of the agency that did that. And then they'd have different agents and what they were looking for, like a manuscript wish list. And then they had the address and they were like, "Here's what they require." A lot of times, they wanted you to just send the full manuscript. Cause it took so long to do the whole thing that it was like, you can't wait back and forth between samples and query letters and all that stuff. So you just send a query letter with your book and that cost a lot of money to send.
And then you also had to wait forever and a day. And you had to send them a self-addressed stamped envelope if you wanted it to be returned to you, which I did, because I spent 30 bucks on that thing. It's like, "I can't spend $30 every time I send out a book." So I just remember I sent it out. I don't know how many people I sent it to, I would say maybe 15 people. Maybe 10, maybe 10. And most of them were form rejections I got back.
And then I got a couple of people who wrote nice little letters, small, but nice little letters that were just kinda like, "Hey, I think you have some kind of talent here, but I don't think that I could sell what you're doing." I'm not sure you even know what you're doing, really basically is what it came down to. Which I think it's true, but also not true. I think it was just the market was different.
And I think the kind of stories I was interested in telling, with the characters I was interested in telling them through, I don't think the world was quite ready for that. And so it was kind of rough, especially when at that time, when I started doing that, I was taking classes.
I think I actually had come home for a bit. I was taking classes at Cleveland State or somewhere. And I remember, I think also maybe auditing classes, I can't remember how it happened. But I was taking a class with a professor and she was a phenomenal human being first and foremost. And then she was just a great writer. And her husband was also a well-known, great writer. And she took an interest in me in a way that I'll never forget.
Not only did she tell me that I had ability, but she instilled confidence that I deserved an opportunity to get stories told. And I think that was what it was, is like, sometimes I thought like, "Okay, I have the ability, but nobody wants to hear these stories." Like, "No one wants to hear these stories." And she said, "No, there are people who need them." And I'll never forget her for that. She unfortunately passed away far too soon but she was an instrumental person.
She got me my first real fellowship, helped me do this summer writing Institute in New York. And a lot of stuff that just made me feel like I belonged, I think. And helped me get in touch with people who were doing similar things. It was enough. She wrote this recommendation letter for one of these programs that I ended up being in, that I didn't even know that she was applying for me. And I have that recommendation letter. And I can't tell you, over the last 15 years, how many times I looked at that for just reassurance and also to feel like she was there, trying to see whatever she saw. And I'm thankful for that. Yeah, I'm thankful for that.
So I think I ended up taking on a lot of different jobs and going to a lot of different schools and just trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I had an internship at NASA because at one point in time I was gonna be a computer engineer. And a lot of that was my dad's influence, my dad's a math and science guy, and wanting me to have stability. He knew the type of sacrifice, I guess, that was required to lead a life in the arts. And I'll be honest, especially for a Black man, people of color, my dad never was in a position to think about like, "I want to just do this job because I love it." That wasn't ever really an option for him.
And I think that he was worried that in my pursuit of this thing, that no one could quite understand how to get there - there was no formula - that I would lose countless opportunities to build a life for myself. And in some respects he was right. I mean, definitely engineering was a safer choice and I happened to be good at it. And I think that was the other part of it for him was like, "Here you have this opportunity to excel in something."
One year I won NASA Intern of the Year and I remember that was the year that I had already decided, I just hadn't told anyone, that I was not gonna do engineering anymore. And I remember my parents, I didn't know that I had won, and I remember my parents showing up to this end of the program ceremony. And I was like, "Why are you guys here?" I couldn't figure out why they were there because I hadn't told them about it. And they were all dressed up and I'm like, "What's happening?"
And then I won. I just remember my parents, especially my dad, being so proud because he wanted me to be an engineer. And then like, "Now my son works at NASA. And he's getting his school paid for," and all this stuff. And in my heart, I had just realized that as much as I appreciated that experience, what NASA really did for me was it solidified the fact that I should be writing. Because when I was there, the program that I was working in with my two mentors, it was really fun, it was cool.
But I was working in this cubicle with three other guys and I just saw my whole life unfold and I knew it was always gonna be in this cubicle. I felt like I was withering. I just couldn't imagine it. I've never been a nine to five person. Even now, I know when my creative hours are. I know when I'm at my peak, I know like when, "Okay, now's a good time to do business because I'm in this different headspace." I've always been aware of my body frequencies. And so it was just like, "I can't. I can't sit here every day from nine to five. I just can't do it." It felt like I was slowly dying.
But how do you say that as a young person, when you've been handed this amazing opportunity? How do you say, "It's not for me." And how do you say that to your father and to your mother who worked so hard so that you can have an opportunity in life and do well for yourself? How do you say, "It's not enough for me. I want this other thing." What gave me the confidence to tell my parents that I was gonna drop out of engineering was I had a conversation that same night that I won intern of the year. I’m holding my plaque and the award, and I go back to my office and I'm just sitting there and I'm like, "What do I do? How do I figure this out? How can I tell my parents?"
And it's weird because my dad is not a very expressive person. And now this man is like, "I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you." And man, those are the words, for a son father thing, those are the words you always want to hear. And now I'm gonna destroy, dismantle the thing that got me there, right? And so I remember I was sitting there and then I look up and there's somebody there and it's my mentor. And he sits across from me and he says, "Hey, congratulations. Well deserved. You worked your butt off. And you already know we think the world of you here. But because I do think the world of you, I'm gonna give you some advice." And he was like, "This isn't for you. This is not for you. It's not a knock on, obviously, your ability." He said, "I think you could do it and excel and do a lot of cool things, but we both know you won't be happy."
And he's like, "I'm an older person in this world. I've done a lot of things because I had to." He's like, "But this is gonna haunt you forever if you don't make the attempt to swing for the thing that you just want in your heart." And it was framed in that moment because here's an adult that I respected, who was just a strong person who also had kids that were my age. And he was giving me permission, in a way, to do something just for myself.
Sarah Enni: That's fascinating. I mean, it's so interesting that you've had these mentors at these pivotal moments. I like what you said there, to give you permission. It's not like they were telling you something you didn't know, but it's this affirmation, right?
Justin Reynolds: I was lucky. I've had people along the way who've given me the boost, but you know, life happens. And so along the way, I also had to take care of myself. And so I had lots of random jobs and I think I'm grateful for every job that I did. I was constantly having those kind of jobs and finding a way to make ends meet and still the whole time, just scribbling in notebooks and legal pads and filling these legal pads up with stories, ideas. And reading so much and so widely and challenging myself to read things I didn't think I wanted to read, and pushing myself.
Trying to understand like, "What is it that people were looking for?" Like, "How do you tell a good story? What do I like about stories?" I was kinda teaching myself. I was taking classes, but it was also just that library kid in me who spent so much of his formative years, literally almost living at the library, my sister and I. I just went back to that. And I'm just checking out books after books and I'm just reading them myself and trying to figure out like, "How do you do this thing? What's the alchemy involved to make this magic?"
Sarah Enni: I want to kind of shift a little bit towards Opposite of Always and how you got on the track of actually becoming the published writer that you are. And it kind of starts with a difficult question, which is, I understand you started writing Opposite of Always and shifting into the writing that we know you for now, after you suffered some loss, personal loss in your life. Do you mind talking about what happened and how you were able to cope with it with your writing?
Justin Reynolds: Sure. I'm a person who, I think if people know me, I'm a person who typically doesn't have a hard time sharing my emotions. But I think that has come with a lot of effort over the years. Maybe it's because of the way that we sometimes raise boys and men in this country, especially, I guess probably around the world. Or because of the environment I grew up in, or whatever it is. I think it was not feeling like I had the permission to just explore love and friendship in this emotional open and honest way. And yet inside of me, I felt like I had all of these things that I was interested in. And it was so confusing to me why people would think that it was weird for a man to want to say, "I love you" to his friend. Or for me even to feel uncomfortable. Like, "Why did I actually feel that way?"
When in reality, isn't that what life is about, interpersonal relationships, meaningful connections? If that's what we're all striving for, at least that's what I think it's about, then why am I so afraid to be honest about these feelings? And it's because it's drilled down into me by society. I'm afraid someone's gonna look at me this way, or they're gonna think this, or think that. Or they're gonna think I'm weak or what have you.
And it's like, "Why do we compare the most beautiful, wonderful, fulfilling qualities with weakness and frailty?" And I think that was what propelled me to write this story, because I was dealing with the loss of my aunt who was like a mom to me. And then I was dealing with the loss of one of my best friends who died way too young and super unexpectedly.
And then I lost a patient, at this time I was working as a registered nurse in hematology and oncology, and I lost a patient who we worked primarily with hematology patients. They were primarily the sickle cell patients. And the thing about sickle cell is that sickle cell allows those patients that we saw would be there for long periods of time. And so you cultivate some deep relationships with some of these people because you see them 14 hours a day and you're talking to them and you're hearing about their lives. And you know the things that they're missing. They're missing work and they're missing school, or this relationship is on the rocks because they're always at the hospital or whatever it is. You become a part of that.
And I want to preface this by saying this, I never want anyone, least of all myself, to feel like someone else's pain or discomfort or misery is for my benefit, to teach me something. That's not what it's for. But I would also not be a human if I didn't feel like I learned something based on the way that she led her life. And I did. And so when she passed, I had some existential crises happening inside of me. I was kinda like, "Why? What's the point if a good person can just be gone, like a fuse is turning off. Why are we doing this? It's not fair." Of course we know it's not fair, but to be constantly confronting the injustice in the way the universe works. It was just like... I was done.
And I started to feel burned out from that job because a lot of it is saying goodbye to people. And so those three people, losing those three people, just sent me in a little bit of an emotional tailspin and I couldn't quite figure out how to get out of it. And I remember sitting at my kitchen table talking to my cousin, it was her mother who had passed, and I was like, "Man, I kind of have this idea. I keep hearing this voice. And it was Jack's voice." I was like, "I just keep hearing this voice, it keeps saying this thing." But I didn't think that I should write the story. I didn't know what the story was, but I didn't think I should write it because I thought, "It doesn't belong to me to write a story that's inspired by the tragedy of someone else's life." Like that's crappy.
And then I was also afraid that if by some fortune it became a thing and it was a book one day, that I would have to tell this story over and over again. And I thought like, "Do I want to relive that every time?" Because I'm a person who, you know, I can't turn that part off of me. I can't turn it off. My cousin told me that day, she said, "Yeah, I think my mom would want you to tell the story that you're supposed to tell." And that kind of unlocked it. And the first line that I heard Jack say was like, "People like to say there's someone for everyone." And I think that was a thing I was wrestling with. And that story took off from there.
And honestly, I wrote that story kind of in a fever dream. I don't even remember writing some of it because it was a very emotional time for me. And it was therapy on the page. And I was wrong because when I was finished and it eventually became a book, I thought it would be the worst thing to talk about. But it turned out, in some ways, to be some of the best most therapeutic moments of my life. Talking to people who had also lost people and seeing the pain in their eyes, but also some of the healing that they were doing or that they were undergoing.
And knowing that you feel a little less alone, but also there's some understanding there. And you understand that we're all undergoing some form of trauma probably in our lives. And we're all at different stages of healing. And if we can just help each other along a little bit, then we've done a great thing. And I was hoping that The Opposite could then kind of provide a little bit of that hopefulness that we all need.
Sarah Enni: Thank you for talking about it, cause it is intense and very emotional. But what struck me in hearing your answer was that moment of, "Why are we doing this," right? Like, "Why are we tasked with consciousness?" Like, "What do I do with this?" And hearing you say that I'm like, "Yeah." I think that what makes writers, writers, is that for us that's not a rhetorical question. We actually take on the burden of trying to answer it.
Justin Reynolds: That's true. Unfortunately, sometimes. And yeah, writing that book taught me a lot. I think I kind of alluded to it earlier, is that the stories that I was interested in telling, were the stories that were highly character-driven, that's important to me. Cause I'm trying to write people who are very flawed but who are still, at their core, people who are just trying to figure out life and trying to do their best to do no harm to others.
And even when they do a lot of harm, which happens in both books, owning it and trying to do better the next time. And so I think with the books that I have, what I realized was that, "Okay, those are things that are inside of me, that I'm going to always go back to. Those are things I'm interested in telling. But now I need to understand how I can marry that with something that makes a person, who maybe on the surface, doesn't think they want to read a book about that. How can I make those people pick up the book? How can I write something that gives me the package that's big enough to discuss the things that I really want to discuss?"
And for me, it's like, "I'm interested in the modern world. I'm very curious. If we did this one thing differently about the world, if we change this one element, how would that then affect the rest of the world? How would that affect this family, this community, this neighborhood?" So I think that's where my stories come from. It's like marrying plot with that love for character.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. And since we're already talking about it, do you mind with Opposite of Always just giving us the quick pitch for that story?
Justin Reynolds: So Opposite of Always is basically like anyone who's seen Groundhog Day in which Bill Murray has to relive the same day over and over again, Opposite is that except for my main character, Jack, has to relive the same four months over and over again. And at the end of the four month period, the person that he loves most in the world, Kate, dies tragically each time. And then at that moment, he's reset back to the spot where he first met her and unbeknownst to her, he has traveled back in time and is carrying the knowledge of those previous timelines. So he's the only one who knows he's traveling, but he's trying to figure out why he is traveling. And he decides it must be to save Kate, quote unquote, "save" Kate. So that's what the story is about.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. And calling back to the Crichton of it all, marrying this really commercially digestible hook that gets you into the story and then the characters really are what you are able to sink into and what stick with people, I think, with both of your books.
That's what the book is about, that's what you were writing to process. You have kind of a cool story about how you got your agent as well. So if you don't mind, I'd love to hear about how that came about.
Justin Reynolds: Yeah, it's kind of an unusual path. I had just basically completed Opposite of Always, the main script. I saw this contest on Twitter, this pitch contest, and it was like, "Yo, pitch your book in 140 characters, describe the book and then use these hashtags to denote what genre of book." So like hashtag YA for young adult. And the interesting thing about this particular pitch contest was that it was called #DVPit, which is diversity. And it focuses on recognizing and uplifting marginalized voices.
And to me that fit the bill because the thing that I always got told was like, "I'm not sure how to market your stories. I'm not sure who's looking for these stories." And so I'm like, "This sounds like the people that I want to be with." And so I did it. I created these tweets. And you got to tweet one an hour with your pitch, and then the way this one worked, the agents where perusing the feed and if they liked your thing, then they would favorite it, or like it. And then if editors who are also watching wanted to see something, or they were interested in something, they would retweet it.
So at the end of the day, I had like 30 something agents that liked it total, after eight hours. And so I then took that list and I was gonna do it in waves so if someone was giving me helpful feedback, I could change that and then have the opportunity to give it to the next group with those improvements, hopefully. And so I just made the list and I was fortunate in that three of the people who I wanted to work with most, contest aside, were on that list. Now I was in this situation where I ended up getting a couple of offers from that. Then I was in the position where I got to decide and the tables were turned, as it were, where I could say no to somebody.
Sarah Enni: Such a great success story for the #DVPit movement, I don't know, what do you call it? It's a whole thing now it's a whole world.
Justin Reynolds: Yeah, it was great. So it was exciting to see people who were feeling kind of out in the cold with some of this incredible work that's being produced, not having the opportunity to get it in front of people.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Yeah. It's so great, so I wanted to make sure that we highlighted it as a part of this conversation. Well, let's get to Early Departures before I ask more questions specifically about Early Departures do you want to pitch that for us?
Justin Reynolds: Early Departures is a story of two teenage boys who grew up as best friends. But at the start of the book they've been estranged from one another for almost two years because the main character, Jamal, blames the death of his parents from two years ago on his best friend, Quincy, or Q. And so they haven't spoken. But at the outset of the story, they found their worlds once again colliding. And at the end of that night, tragedy strikes and Quincy finds himself being rushed to the hospital as he barely holds on to life. And Jamal is with him in this very uncomfortable, very dire situation.
Unfortunately, Quincy doesn't make it, he ends up dying. But the good news is that they live in a time in which reanimation is possible. And reanimation is this healthcare technology that allows you to bring someone back from the dead that's recently died, provided they fit a host of criteria, and Quincy does. And so that means they get to bring him back to life. The catch is that, to date, because this technology is new and still experimental they've only brought someone back the longest period of time was 19 days, which is not a lot of time.
And then on top of that, in order for the person to be reintroduced into the world without having the traumatic experience of dealing with their death, they have to reset their memory a little bit and go to a time that predates that trauma. And so that means that when Quincy wakes up, he has no idea that he's died. And it means he also has no idea that he's set to die again very soon. And because he's under age, 17, his mother gets to make that call even to bring them back in the first place, which has its own ethical questions.
But she elects to, and then she decides that it's better that he doesn't know the truth because she wants him to enjoy his remaining days and not have to wrestle with the weight of his mortality. Meanwhile, Jamal, who is looking for an opportunity to maybe reconcile and to find some forgiveness and to give some forgiveness, can't imagine being dishonest to himself or to the people that he loves anymore. Because he recognizes how frail life is. And so he wants to tell Quincy the truth.
And so it's that wrestling. But during the course of this relationship of the story, as they relive Quincy's last few days and have an opportunity to spend those times with them, you get a lot of flashback moments about what made this friendship the type of friendship that it once was, which was this inseparable. "This is my person forever. We're gonna live together. Our kids are going to be best friends," that type of love that they had between each other. So that's what Early Departures is.
Sarah Enni: And it was a really beautiful book and really funny which, of course, people who know you from Opposite of Always would come to expect, really full of heart. But [pauses] I'm like, "Do I even have a question around this?" What I note between the two books are that Jamal in Early Departures and Jack in Opposite of Always are struggling with these existential questions about someone they love imminently losing them. But the kinds of questions, it's almost like these godlike questions.
They know what's going to happen. And so given this almost godlike information, what do they do with it? That's like a lot to put on a young character.
Justin Reynolds: It's heavy, it's heavy.
Sarah Enni: I'm interested in why you think the plot devices that you went with with these stories, like notably in Early Departures, Q is able to come back, but it's not permanent. Nor did you write a story where he comes back, but he has these XYZ complications. It's fully like, "You only have this time." What do you think about that as a premise is so compelling to you?
Justin Reynolds: I think that it's the questions that I'm wrestling with. All my stories start with questions that I'm either trying to wrestle with or that I feel bubbling up inside of me. And the page has always been the way that I deal with that. And I think that what Jamal and Jack both have in common is that they're both trying to figure out what their responsibility is to the world, and to their family, and to their friends. Like, "How do you live a good life?"
I have a book by Sheila Heit, it had the best title every, it's How Should a Person Be. That's a question I think about a lot is, how should a person be? And how do we decide what it is to be a good human? Some part of it is me looking back and thinking like, "We probably need to do a better job of talking about these things earlier with young people and giving them permission to ask big questions and feeding that curiosity." And also admitting that we don't have a lot of the answers and that that's okay.
A lot of it is you kind of forging your own path and trying to figure out things on the fly, that's so much of what life is. But that you're not alone in these questions. And that sometimes the journey itself, as you try to figure out the answer, is the entirety of the answer. And so I think Jamal and Jack they get these speculative elements in their stories, so that they can fully explore and have a limited amount of time to do it, to try to process it, because that's how those things work. We get a finite amount of time and we have to decide like, "What is this time that I have in front of me? What is that supposed to be allocated toward? What should I be doing with that?"
Sarah Enni: Right. And in both, but I definitely felt as reading Early Departures - me as a reader - I was picking up on Jamal's angst about trying to extrapolate what he was doing for himself and what was best for Q, and when their needs were aligned. So much of what being an adult is, is understanding the wholeness of the people you're with. And when is it selfish or when is being selfish what you have to be? It's hard questions.
Justin Reynolds: It's hard questions. It's questions that I still wrestle with, to be honest. I think some of what you're hitting on is something that I'm still trying to figure out in terms of like, "How can you be a good friend? How can you be a good brother or a sister or a mother or a father, or an aunt or an uncle, a citizen, an engaged human at your job?" Like, "How can you be all these different roles?" Like, "How much of yourself can you split and divide and still have people feel like they're getting a whole portion of you?"
And I'm a person who never wants to shortchange people, you know? I want to give everybody everything that they're due and everything I think that we all deserve. Which is someone's full attention and someone's commitment and someone's belief and someone's confidence and someone's love. And I think what you start to realize though, is that sometimes those things also run counterintuitively to the things that we need. And some people are built that they're gonna put other people's interests ahead of their own. And that has consequences.
And so much of life is trying to figure out weighing the consequences versus the gains and trying to decide how do you put a value on this experience, if it helps this person? But at the same time, I need self-care. How do I take care of myself so that I am still in a position to help people or in a position to be a friend for my friends?
So I think those are questions that are, you're right when you said earlier, kinda godlike questions. It's like, yeah, I think what everyone's gonna learn, I think what the characters all learned, is there's not an easy answer. I mean, both people really mess up at times and I think it's because there's no formula and how do you deal with the idea that you have failed the people you love most?
Sarah Enni: Right. And how do you accept the inevitability that you cannot be a person without hurting other people. You can't fully exist without other people having to endure something to make that room for you.
Justin Reynolds: That's true. It's like you realize that not only is there a finite amount of time, there's only so much space in ourselves and our brains and our hearts. And the thing that's interesting is, we're all kind of like hurling through time and space. And I think a lot of people, we've been conditioned where we have decided that it's best to not be involved, to not touch anyone, to stay in your own lane. That's not my business, it's not this or that. And it's like, "That's not the kind of life that I want to lead."
And I don't know if I could. I'm not a hands-off person. I want to know what's happening. I want to know what's going on with people. Maybe I'm annoying people at times because I have this interest in what's happening, but l genuinely care. And I also want to think that most people do. It's just that we all have different ways of expressing and of showing our true selves.
I'm interested very much in when you can figure out how you can be the most honest version of you and still hold onto those relationships when you're afraid that the person that you are in your core, if you showed all yourself, maybe it's not enough. Maybe that person won't love you anymore. Maybe they'll see that you're just this frail, imperfect, sometimes quivering human being. And it won't be enough. And it's that feeling of trying so hard to be, not even perfect, but trying so hard to be everything for everyone that you start to destroy yourself a little bit.
That's the thing that I'm interested in. When it's not self-sacrificing anymore, it's like self-destruction. How do you figure that out?
Sarah Enni: That's bringing me back to our talking about toxic masculinity, right? When if, as a way of self-preservation, you let the fear win and you decide not to be what's considered weak or fail, which is vulnerable and open, you think you're protecting yourself but that's not a great path.
Justin Reynolds: No, it's true. I think that's the problem. We live in a time in which we still shy away from things that make us uncomfortable. And the thing that is wild to me is that if we all were to sit down, every human sat down, and had to compose a list of the qualities that they would want in a friend I think most of us would put honest and open and vulnerable and a person who's a good listener. All those things, loyal and blah, blah, blah. Then when we have that, or when we have the opportunity to be that to somebody else, now we're uncomfortable. Like, "Oh, we don't really want that."
Because you realize that somebody who's vulnerable with you, now there's a responsibility you have to that person, you owe that person something. Whether it's time, advice, a shoulder to cry on, that doesn't come free. If you want vulnerability, you have to, one, be also vulnerable. That's the biggest price. Is that you have to in turn pay that back. We all talk a big game that we want this stuff, but then when we have it it's like, "What do I do with it?" It makes us uncomfortable.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to your point, I think it would be useful to sit down and make a list of what kind of friend do I want to be? And then get real with yourself like, "Is that the kind of friend I'm being?" And also, "Are people treating me that way? Am I getting what I want?"
Justin Reynolds: That last part, for sure. Yeah. I think that's the part too. Sometimes it's like, "Okay, am I getting the things back?" The funny thing is, I remember one of my friends was not having a lot of success at love. And our other friend told her, like, "What do you want in a partner?" And she rattled off the list that we all would probably rattle off. And then my friend's like, "Well, what would make that person want you?" [Laughs]
Sarah Enni: Right? It's a fair question. I love that.
Justin Reynolds: Like, "You don't have all of that. Are you actively working to be better?" And if you're not... even if you could get that person's attention, it's almost not fair to them that you're coming not fully formed. And that you're enjoying the things that like you can't in turn offer them. Like it's not completely fair.
Sarah Enni: Sometimes the call is coming from inside the house.
Justin Reynolds: It's true! Exactly, exactly. A hundred percent. A hundred percent.
Sarah Enni: Okay. This is turning into my favorite kind of conversation, which is basically therapy. love it so much. I don't want to keep you all day, so I want to ask about things that you have coming up, but I want to make sure, is there anything else about Early Departures that you want to make sure that we talk about?
Justin Reynolds: I think the biggest thing I would say is... so when you read the synopsis and when you look at the title, I think it feels very heavy. On the cover it's this reference to these ghost images of people, and it is dealing with some things that are hard things to talk about, sometimes. Grief, masculinity, best friendship that's in dire straits, all these kinds of things. But at the heart of the story, the same way that people referenced Opposite of Always, it's like this rom-com. Which in reality, someone dies, is an interesting way to put it.
I think Early Departures has that humor infused into it because I understood that from the very beginning, that the person that I was talking about in this book was like me taking the friend that I lost, that inspired part of Opposite, and then dedicating basically an entire book to them.
What I realized is that, the thing that they did most for me, was teach me how to laugh. And the thing that they did most for me was giving me permission to not take myself so seriously, sometimes. People who maybe pick up the book may not realize the book is, at its heart, a book that's about love. Love that's been had, love that's been lost, but also the laughter that fills those gaps in between.
Sarah Enni: You have so many things coming up to talk about!
Justin Reynolds: Oh yeah, tell me about it. And I'm grateful, but yeah, it's a lot.
Sarah Enni: You have a lot on your plate, but can you give us a little bit of... from what I see, we got a Miles Morales book coming out next year. And, I have to ask about your co-writing a book with Caron Butler. And then you also have one of my favorite deal announcement titles, It's the End of the World and I'm in My Bathing Suit, a middle grade book coming out in 2022. You are booked, as they say.
Justin Reynolds: Yeah. Yeah. I'm booked. Man, I'm very fortunate, first of all, to continue to be able to do this thing that I love. It's weird because when I talked earlier about my father being worried that maybe it wouldn't be sustainable, and that's a thing that every artist always worries about no matter who you are and where you come from like, "Am I gonna be allowed to do it again?"
And you need somebody to say yes, who's a gatekeeper. And so I've been fortunate enough that I get to do those projects.
Sarah Enni: You've given pretty good life advice so far, but let's do maybe some practical writing advice. Actually I'm really interested in, you brought something up earlier that I'd love to hear you talk about maybe, if you have advice based on knowing yourself and your body and when is a good time for you to write? I'm so interested in that. That's like an ongoing thing I'm trying to figure out myself. So if you have any advice on that, I'd love to hear it.
Justin Reynolds: You know, people talk about circadian rhythm and all that kind of thing. I think a lot of it is just, you have to be diligent about it in the beginning when you're trying to chart and map out when your peak levels are. And here's the difference, and this is something I still wrestle with but I think I've learned a lot of things in the process about myself, is that there's a difference between when you are peak productive versus peak creative.
And for me, because I'm a person like no one will ever be more critical of my work than I am, it doesn't matter who you are. I'm a person who's like, "This is not good. How did I ever think this was good? This is terrible. It's the worst thing I've ever written. They're gonna find out I can't write books." So that's me. So I study my patterns and I realized like, "Man, I'm really productive doing this three-hour stretch early in the morning. And then this three-hour stretch late at night."
And so trying to center my life around those moments where I can be in my peak creative moments has been sometimes a challenge, but I know that most of the time it pays off in those moments. And part of it for me is that I am still fully lucid, but at four o'clock in the morning, I'm tired. I'm awake enough that I can write down the things I need to write, cause I'm an early riser anyway. But I'm just out of it enough where I'm not gonna be overly critical of myself. And I just allow myself to write.
I'm not looking at every sentence like it's life or death the way that I do at one o'clock in the afternoon when I'm tired. And then there's another part where it's like, "Okay, I am not creative at all during this space, which for me is 12 to two. So now how can I use that time wisely?" Well, for me, it's like, "Okay, I'm gonna answer correspondence. I'm going to make travel plans. I'm going to do all of the business elements, all the practical things." I make appointments for myself. I'm gonna go to therapy or whatever it is in that time it's like, "Okay, this time is not gonna be where I'm at my best creatively, but I can still use that time to get life things done.
And then it's kinda like building your life around it and recognizing like, "Okay, in order for me to do that four o'clock start, what time do I need to go to bed? What do I need to be eating?" I need to be like, "Do I need to plan out this day? Do I have some snacks that are healthy that I can use to sustain me and give me that little bit of boost that I need?"
I think I've been really, really - especially in 2020 working at home, like all of us have had to do at some point - it's been the thing that's gonna really allow me to not completely collapse, thinking about those things.
Sarah Enni: And that's kind of where my question is coming from, I guess. This has forced a lot of people who, even people who are accustomed to working from home like you and me, it's a whole other level now.
Justin Reynolds: It is. Yeah. Just having the option taken away. It's different. It puts you in a different mental space.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. It's always so fun to talk to you, Justin. This was a particularly wonderful conversation. I'm so grateful for all your time today. Thanks for being with us.
Justin Reynolds: No, thanks for having me. I'm obviously such a fan and you know that I'm a fan of your work as well. So I'm glad that I get to talk to you. I always feel like I learn things about myself as I'm talking to you. So it's always a great time.
Sarah Enni: Same. Ah, thanks friend, I appreciate it.
Thank you so much to Justin. Follow him on Twitter @andthisJustin and Instagram @JustinwriteYA. You can follow me on both @SarahEnni (Twitter and Instagram), and the show @FirstDraftpod (Twitter and Instagram). And thank you to our sponsor, Everything I Thought I knew by Shannon Takoaka out from Candlewick Press October 13th, 2020.
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Hayley Hershman produces First Draft and today's episode was produced and sound designed by Callie Wright. The theme music is by Dan Bailey and the logo was designed by Collin Keith. Thanks also to transcriptionist-at- large Julie Anderson.
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