First Draft Episode #263: Opening the Mailbag with Brandy Colbert
July 31, 2020
Listen to the Episode
This week is a new mailbag episode, where I--along with a very special guest--will answer listener questions! Joining me today is Brandy Colbert, author of Pointe, Little & Lion, The Only Black Girls in Town, and more! Her latest book, The Voting Booth, is out now.
Welcome to First Draft with me, Sarah Enni. This week, I'm answering listener questions with Brandy Colbert, author of books for kids and teens, including her most recent YA, The Voting Booth, which is out now. We also talk in this episode about her just announced first ever book-length nonfiction project about the Tulsa race massacre of 1921, which will come out with Balzter + Bray next fall.
Brandy has been on First Draft before a couple of times, and believe me, you really want to hear those episodes (here and here). I'll provide a link to both of those in the show notes. Speaking of show notes, everything that Brandy and I talk about in today's episode can be found there. First Draft participates in affiliate programs specifically with bookshop.org so that means that if you click through the links on FirstDraftPod.com and decide to buy one of the books that you find there, it helps to support the show and independent bookstores at no additional cost to you.
If you'd like to donate directly to First Draft either on a one-time or monthly basis, you can do that at paypal.me/FirstDraftPod. And if you have any questions that you would like to see featured on a future mailbag episode, please call and leave those questions at First Draft's voicemail that's at (818) 533-1998. Or you can record yourself asking the question and send that audio to mailbag [at] firstdraftpod.com.
Okay, now please sit back, relax, and enjoy this conversation with Brandy Colbert.
Sarah Enni: So hi, Brandy, how are you?
Brandy Colbert: Hi, I'm so good. How are you, Sarah?
Sarah Enni: I'm good. It's so nice to see you. We're not in the same city right now, which feels wrong.
Brandy Colbert: I know it does. Yeah, but I don't know. It's been so strange being on camera so much over the past few months. I don't know, now it feels good though. Before I would be like, "Let's just do a phone call." But it feels good to see your friend's face when you're talking to them.
Sarah Enni: It's true! I know it's been an interesting paradigm shift. I mean, I don't know, it was all audio and now I'm like podcast and video and who knows? And it's interesting.
Brandy Colbert: It's a lot.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, it's a lot. So I want to just, right out of the gate, let people know that they can actually hear one-on-one conversations with you and I on previous episodes of First Draft. And I'll make sure that I link to those in the show notes. We get really into a lot of your previous books, but man, you're so prolific that even since we've spoken, there's like three books have come out, or something!
Brandy Colbert: Yeah, I know. It's weird. I was looking at the last time I've been on and it was when I was either writing or Finding Yvonne was about to come out. That feels like lifetimes ago. No, it was just like a couple of years ago.
Sarah Enni: We have questions from listeners, but if you don't mind, I'm just going to jump in with a question of my own. When I moved to LA I lived with you. You and I have a personal history which, by the way, also feels like a zillion years ago, but it was only like five or six years ago.
Brandy Colbert: It does.
Sarah Enni: But I wanted to ask because, I was looking at your resume which now has Pointe, Little & Lion, Finding Yvonne, The Revolution of Birdie Randolf, The Only Black Girls in Town, The Voting Booth. And you just announced your first, well, and that's not even counting all of your anthologies and the book for young adults that you wrote with Misty Copeland.
So I'm out of breath even just like saying all of that! But I was thinking about how your trajectory is somewhat in-line with like Maurene Goo and some other friends that we have. How long did it take you to write Point? Do you remember? I feel like you wrote that for a few years before it was published.
Brandy Colbert: That's a good question. I feel I kind of started it and then set it down and picked it up again and revamped it. But I would say the most current version, before I started editing it, was probably late 2010. I think 2009 is when I started it, then I picked it up again in late 2010, and then 2011 is when I got my agent and all of that. So yeah, it's been a long time.
Sarah Enni: I was thinking the first project took the longest, it seems. And then you totally picked up steam and have been really consistent the last few years. And that's true for other friends that we know as well. I'm just wondering what is going on with that? Do you think you streamlined your process? Is it just deadlines? Is it easier now? Like what's going on over there?
Brandy Colbert: One funny thing is, one of our interviews that we did, I can't remember which one it was, but I had told you that I don't have a backlog of ideas. And that was right after my first or second book came out, but then I don't know what happened. I had three years between publishing Pointe and Little & Lion, and then it's been a book a year since then. And now, two books this year.
I don't know. I wish I could tell you. I've always been prolific. I kind of realized this doing an interview the other day that I, as a kid even, was super prolific. So I wrote as a kid, I started writing when I was seven. But I have notebooks and notebooks of, not all finished, but definitely several finished books that I wrote as a kid. So I guess it's always been in me.
I think I somehow learned how to put what actually are ideas and form them into a story. Because before it was just so nebulous, and it still is, but I think I recognized like, "Okay, you've got this idea for this character and you've got this idea for this hobby or this event that happens." And I've learned how to merge those together better and more quickly, I guess.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Well, this question is coming from a place of being like, you know, my book came out last year. And I'm finishing something that I think will be a good version of it... like soon, I hope, God! I'm like, "Man, I could use a little bit of that." Like, "Let's pick up the pace." I guess.
Brandy Colbert: Yeah. I mean, part of it’s totally survival, I will be honest. But it feels good to have, I guess you could say, streamlined that process. But it still feels a little weird cause sometimes I'm like, "Should I be taking more time with these books?" But I feel good about what I'm putting out. So I guess that's all that matters.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, no, definitely. Well, all right, we started off with my question being like, "Brandy help me!" But I put out the call for questions and we got a ton of amazing feedback from listeners. So I want to dive into these questions and see what you think about them. So let's start with, "How do you get yourself motivated to write when you are creatively drained?" It's kind of picking up on our conversation here because you can't feel like writing every day and yet deadlines. What do you do in that case?
Brandy Colbert: Exactly. I mean, deadlines are sort of what kicked my ass into gear, I'd say, for sure. I don't know though, I've struggled with that, which I think a lot of writers have struggled with during the pandemic. I don't want to speak for anybody, but I know for me personally, reading was a little difficult at first. But now I'm like, "I can read and focus, but writing has been really hard." I think I spent the first couple of months just fretting, basically, not doing anything except checking the news and doom-scrolling as we're all familiar with.
But I think, for me, just pursuing other creative outlets is really helpful. Going on walks even is really helpful, yoga. I don't do as much of either of those as I should, but I want to say when I'm really stuck, that's what I go to. I also am a big proponent of watching TV and movies to get into that creative mindset. Especially something that's outside of what I would normally watch. And by that I mean, something outside of The Real Housewives, you knew that was gonna come up!
Sarah Enni: I did! I was waiting for it!
Brandy Colbert: Yeah, it was like, "Countdown to talking about The Real Housewives." But it's usually that or a really heavy drama. So sometimes I like to watch something that's a little out of my comfort zone, maybe something sci-fi or a nature show or something. Just anything that makes my brain work in a different way, I think, is really helpful.
But sometimes all of that fails and, like you said, I don't feel like writing every day. And I don't write every day. So I think just opening up the computer and just typing. You feel like that whole Kermit Gif where he's just banging away at the keyboard. Like that's always the goal, but sometimes it's just typing. Just getting started and just typing what even kind of feels like nonsense, can just get me started. What about you? How do you approach it?
Sarah Enni: Well, you're definitely speaking to, I think, what I have found is for the last month, I think I've been doing pretty good and writing stuff that really feels better than it did. But the thing is, to me, finding the consistency. So it's like I have to just get up in the morning and do that first thing. And then for the first hour is just garbage and like you're not focused and you're like, "What am I doing?" You're picking a song on Spotify and you're kind of staring into the void or letting the coffee kick in, or whatever it is.
And then I realized if I give myself that hour, and I'm lucky enough to have the time to do this, but then I get like two good hours in, which is amazing, you know? So if I can give myself that every day, then it adds up so fast as opposed to trying to squeeze it in or it's like having to block out that time and be like, "This is what I'm doing and it's my job and I have to commit to it." So kind of being easy on myself, but being strict about the consistency has really helped.
Brandy Colbert: I like that. And they always say every book is written differently and I've always been like a night writer, but now I'm like, "I don't know, maybe this is a daytime writing thing." Morning... my brain is too fuzzy. We all know that. So I've been trying to explore, you know, maybe there's something like I need to approach it differently. That's also, I think maybe, just taking even yourself out of your comfort zone can sometimes help.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, it's true. I like that. Ooh, this was a really interesting question from RenFlow, "Any tips for writing distrust to trust slash growing friendships? How do you approach that?" I thought that was an interesting spin on the love to hate romance or whatever it is. Or hate to love.
Brandy Colbert: Totally. I love that so much. Gosh, I'm trying to think if I've done that in any of my books. I don't know, I feel like everyone's super distrustful in my books. It's always a bunch of slime balls running around.
[Both laughing]
Brandy Colbert: But I would say maybe even in The Voting Booth, my most recent book, there's maybe some distrust there just because it's dual perspective and they don't know each other, you know? It's all set in one day and they start out meeting each other, just by chance, at their polling place. Gosh [pauses], I don't know. I mean, when I write characters, I guess I always come at it from how, not necessarily I would approach a relationship, but how I've seen other people approach relationships.
I try to make it as natural as possible. But yeah, you don't want to go too far where it's like they totally hate each other. It's just sort of distrust. So I dunno, I try to approach it like how I would interact with someone I just met, which is like cautious, not revealing too much information right away, protecting your heart. Even if it's just a friend, I think you still protect your heart with platonic relationships.
Gosh, what else? I mean, the character doesn't know what they don't know. So I think that's sort of helpful in crafting that relationship. They're going to, like I said, protect themselves, but also sort of want this other person to give information and sort of reach out cautiously. I don't know. What do you think about that?
Sarah Enni: Yeah, this was an interesting question cause I'm a little bit doing that right now. I just said it wrong, but it was the hate to love. Is that what it's called? What's that trope?
Brandy Colbert: I guess it is. I don't know.
Sarah Enni: Enemies to lovers. Is that what it is?
Brandy Colbert: Enemies to lovers. Yes! I know, it was like, "It's sitting right there." Yes, that's it.
Sarah Enni: I'm like, "Too strong." I'm a little bit doing that right now, which is, as you say, it can be a romantic relationship or it just can be friendship. I do think what I've noticed, and where I've been kind of tweaking is, depending on where you want them to end up, you can't be too far. In a book you can only, you know, this isn't like One Hundred Years of Solitude. We're not doing a generational story. So it's in a matter of a couple months, how far can one relationship really progress?
So I would say if you're starting from a place of total distrust, you have so much more work to do to get to a place of trust. And if you want someone in the end to fall in love, then at the beginning of the story, you can't have something disqualifying happen that makes your reader completely not interested in there being a reconciliation there. You know?
I mean, I'll make myself very unpopular and use Veronica Mars as an example. I watched that when I was a grown-ass adult and what Logan does at the beginning of that series, I found so disqualifying that I have no interest in watching her fall in love with him. And I know that puts me in the minority of people who watched that show, but I was like, "He can't recover for me."
So I've been really mindful of that and writing it like they need to have misunderstandings. And then what makes you build trust with someone is vulnerability, right? You start by sharing basic things and you get then to the point where you feel like you can share things that are a little less comfortable or a little more embarrassing or difficult. And then if you can pinpoint those moments of sharing, then the reader wants to know more. And when characters are vulnerable with each other, that's how you can then take your next step plot-wise because you've earned it.
Brandy Colbert: Yeah. Oh, I love that answer. That's like such a perfect answer. That's great.
Sarah Enni: Well, I hope I'm doing it right! We'll see if it translates. But I thought that was a good question. Cause I don't think we talk, especially phrasing it that way as a platonic relationship and friendship, we don't talk enough about how to develop that over the course of a book too.
Oh, this was a question that I was like, Maya Kanga or Conga? Such a good question. "How do you keep writing a book after the version of you, that started it, has evolved?"
Brandy Colbert: Oh my gosh.
Sarah Enni: I admired that. I was like, "Dang!" That is a really good question. I'm gonna steal that.
Brandy Colbert: Yeah, totally. I don't know. I think that, for me, that's sort of why we have drawer novels, you know? The novels that will never see the light of day again. I think because I have had so many back-to-back contracts with really quick deadlines, I actually haven't run into that. I've really felt like the same person while writing from beginning to end and revising.
But thinking about taking a break from work and going back to have looked at it, I don't know, sometimes I still feel like, "Wow. There's so much more valuable writing and information in here than I realized." And I'm kind of surprised at past me, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Like, "Oh, she had more insight than I thought!" But if you're picking up something that you really feel like, "Wow, I've evolved since then." I think, for me, I would start over. And that doesn't mean that you have to start over with the characters, or even the plot.
But I think if you feel like you've evolved, then you're going to approach even the way the characters behave differently than you would have in the past, when you were first working on it. That might mean more than just starting over. But yeah, I think I would just do like a page one rewrite, just start fresh. Think about what I had on the page before. But really sort of trick myself into thinking that I'm starting fresh. But meanwhile, it's like, I have been marinating on these characters and they did have a former version, a former life, before this draft. How do you approach that Sarah?
Sarah Enni: Yeah. I totally agree with what you just said. And I think we're both revealing ourselves as pretty ruthless editors of our own work. Cause I also would just open a new Word document and go for it, which is a terrifying thing to tell someone. But I have had that experience with the book I'm currently writing, and dear god, please finally finishing. It's something I've been working on since 2012, so I'm a completely different person.
And what has happened is the characters remain the same and that's what always has, and always will like pull me to this story. But what happens with them, though on the surface it seems like it's really similar, everything underneath has changed. And also the theme of the book and what I'm really taking from their growth is really different.
So I've tried to stay brave about changing things when it doesn't feel right anymore and trusting that either it's gonna work and the characters are gonna pull me through, or that I'll know when it's just not gonna work anymore. Like you said, the drawer books are the ones where you're just like, "It's not serving me anymore. And I gotta just move on."
How do you feel about going back and looking at books that now are published, and done, and on your shelf, and that you're a different person than the person that wrote those books?
Brandy Colbert: That's kind of where my mind went when I heard this question. It's really weird for me to go back and reread some of my work and I'm just like, "Ah." And I kind of forget what I did. I don't know, when I go back and reread, especially Little & Lion, I'm kinda like, "I don't know about this book." Which is funny because that's the one that people seem to have connected with the most in mass. And I'm super appreciative of that. I'm really glad if it can help anybody feel more seen or anything.
But I just don't feel connected to it maybe because I wrote outside of my experience so much. And now there's people who are writing within that experience who are doing obviously a much better job than I would be as an outsider to, say, the LGBTQ community.
So yeah, I have some kind of strange feelings when I go back and reread things. I think that, more than anything, cements me back into that time. And just thinking about the different choices I would have made that always kind of haunts me when I go back and reread my stuff. So I try not to as much as possible.
Like right now I'm comfortable going back and rereading The Voting Booth and The Only Black Girls in Town, because those just came out this year. But next year I'm sure I'll look back and be like, "Oh, what was, I thinking? What did I do there?" So for me, I feel like I never really feel, like you said, we're fans of editing. I don't ever really quite feel like I'm done in a way.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Yeah. And you can't read it and not, I don't know. It's just funny. Every time you read a new draft you're like, "No. I can think of changes." It's never not gonna be there.
Brandy Colbert: Yeah, exactly. So I think it's just one of those things where you just have to, I don't know, make your peace with the fact. And that's part of the reason why on book birthdays, when my book publishes, I'm kind of sad. And I've heard that from other people too. I don't know if you got like the book birthday blues.
Hopefully you were just so ecstatic that your first book was coming out. I'm like happy but then I'm like, "Oh, why do I feel like crying too?" You know? And it's because it's officially done. Like there's no more changes to be made, at least in that edition. And even then it's like unless you really messed up something, they're not going to make changes in future editions.
Sarah Enni: Right. And then it's not your book anymore and it is whatever anyone else decides it is. And that's a lot of giving up control that I'm not a big fan of.
Brandy Colbert: Same. Yeah. It all comes back to control issues constantly for me. So thank you for saying that. Yes. Same.
Sarah Enni: I feel you. Especially when someone like you, who now has this library of your own, it's interesting to think about looking back and just even visually being like a past self is still living with you in some way, but it is a beautiful thing too, though, to see all the books together. It's very cool.
Brandy Colbert: I love it. I would not give it up for anything.
Sarah Enni: Okay. This was a question from Twitter from Erin. And Erin was asking, "How do you know when to push back on your agent/editor's critiques?" It's a good question. And actually a lot of, I think, newer writers have this question. Especially people who maybe haven't spoken to an editor before and are nervous about it.
Brandy Colbert: I feel like when I was starting out, I thought I had to take everybody's edits. I thought it was almost like they were my teacher, or my mom, like my boss. I didn't understand that it's still your book and you can do whatever you want. And so I had a pretty rigorous editing process for my first book, especially. That was like rounds and rounds of edits. And I did agree with most of those edits, but anytime I didn't, I could always tell. I would feel it in my body. I would feel uncomfortable. Like, "This doesn't feel right."
Even if I would try it, which I think it's always worth kind of trying it, if you don't immediately disagree with it right off the bat. I think it's always worth trying if you have the time to see. You know, they didn't just suggest it out of the blue. This could possibly make it better. But if it's not right, I know. When I'm reading over it, like I said, I feel it in my body, I just feel uncomfortable. It's like this nagging sensation that something's not right here.
So I think you kind of have to go with your gut. Which is kind of a cliched, nebulous advice because it just feels like, "Well, how do you know?" But you know, when your gut's telling you something's wrong. So I think that, more than anything, is when I follow my gut. But I will try it if I don't really strongly disagree with the note, because I think it's always worth trying to just see if you can understand where that person was coming from and if it might make the book better. Because we're not the most objective people when it comes to our own work and can sometimes be hard to see what we're doing, that's not working.
So how do you know that feeling? Do you get that gut feeling too?
Sarah Enni: Yes, totally. And I appreciate you saying it is hard for people to hear the same thing over and over again and be like, "But what does that mean?" And the truth is it's an instinct and you have to develop that instinct. You have to learn how that feels. And I think that means you have to go down a bunch of dead ends as a writer and be like, "Oh, this feels like that one time when I changed chapter two and chapter two didn't need to be changed."
And you can kind of then recognize that. And so that does get easier, I think, with experience. But like you I'll be like, "Why am I banging my head against the wall with this thing?" And then you're like, "It's cause it's just not right."
And I think the important thing to know about agent and editor notes is that they're often tapping on something that's not right, but they may not have the right solution. In fact often they don't, I think, have the right solution because that's your job and your book. But if they're tripping over something, then it's worth paying attention to, and either making it more clear or changing it a little bit, or just thinking overall what it feels like. And you might get a note and need to take a couple days with it.
Brandy Colbert: Yeah. I was just gonna say, I definitely get super defensive about edits, even though I know, obviously, this is someone who spent the time and energy to edit my book. Like obviously they care. But yeah, I get a little bit defensive, so I might need to sit on it instead just being, "No, I'm not doing that!" You know?
But then like what you said about they're tapping against something. It may not be that exact thing they pointed out cause often one note I'll get is, "Well, we don't remember this character." Like, "He didn't stick with us." And then it'll be like, "Ugh!" I'm like, "Why wouldn't they remember that character?"
Well, that character lives in my mind. And obviously I haven't translated it well enough so that that character is now living in the story in a significant way. So yeah, that's a really good point too.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. And I'm interested from your perspective, you've been edited by multiple people. What's it been like to then navigate a new... every editor's style is different. So what have you experienced and how have you kind of adapted to that?
Brandy Colbert: Yeah. Every editor's style is so different. So yeah, from my own books to the anthologies, it's been really interesting to see how people edit. And it's like any other relationship, some are more compatible than others. And some, I feel, understood my work better than others.
But for the most part, I just think that publishing, you have to be so adaptable anyway, in so many different ways, because so much is out of our hands. So I think it just helps me become a more flexible, adaptable writer, which I think is always a good thing and something that I strive to just keep doing as I keep writing.
Sarah Enni: It seems to me like that would be an experience too, that would help you trust your gut even more. Cause you're the constant. Right? And ultimately you're gonna be the one whose name is on all the books. So you kind of have to be like, "Well, let's figure this out."
Brandy Colbert: Definitely. I think it's also interesting to identify that through-line, cause most editors will end up having the same feedback. Because I'm learning as I go along, and I'm learning what things to incorporate in my writing so I don't keep getting the same notes. But there are some things as writers are just habit for us. So one of my things is, my agent is really editorial, and so she's always like, "I just want more here. I want to know more about this person. I want you to open up more about them."
And I think that's because I, myself, can be a little guarded as a person. So I think that I'm also employing that in my characters, which is a really interesting thing that a therapist, I'm sure, would love to discuss with me. So I think it's really interesting to get that same note and even know, going into it when I'm writing, I'm like, "Oh, they're gonna want more." And so I keep trying and trying, but it's like that one thing for me that sticks. I don't let my characters open up enough in the first draft.
Sarah Enni: That's so funny. I have a really similar thing. People will be like, "But how does she feel right now?" And I was like, "Well, who knows how they feel when it's actually happening? She needs three hours and then she'll wake up from a nap and realize that she's angry. Isn't that what everyone does?" But it's like, "No, your character can't..." Like, "You need to be a better person to write this book." I was like, "Oh fuck." So yeah. I have gone to therapy and tried to work on that, (sighs) be like, "Let's get into the moment here."
I have a very fun question to wrap up the listener questions, which is from Maurene, afore-mentioned Maurene Goo, who wants to know, "Bandy, if you had a cat, what would you name it?"
Brandy Colbert: Oh my gosh. Maurene "Maux" Goo. Um, oh my gosh. This is like the question of my life. So, I love so many different cat names. I think I would have to see the cat. But my mom had several cats at once and they were all like food names. So she had like Cinnamon and Pepper and Sage. And then Patches came along with a name, so he didn't get a food name. But I would want more than one cat, of course, if I had cats. You know, they need a buddy.
So I don't know. I like having a theme, like your cat, cat of the podcast, Hammer. It'd be great to have a Hammer and then like, I don't know, Screwdriver. I mean, that's not a good name for a cat. You know what I mean? I love themes. I love names that are like Mr. Wiggles, or something like that. They're very fun. I also love super like American, eighties names, like Josh for a cat. I think is hilarious.
Sarah Enni: I love that! I would love Josh, The Cat!
Brandy Colbert: I feel like I would go with Josh, The Cat, or like a Jason, The Cat or something like that. I don't know. I just think it's so great. So I would have to see the kitty first and then I think it would come to me. But yes, I have obviously thought about this... a lot.
Sarah Enni: I love that.
Brandy Colbert: So, I'll be ready.
Sarah Enni: Are you thinking about getting a cat?
Brandy Colbert: Uh, not in my current place. It's too small. There's like no viable place to put the litter box at all, sadly. But yeah, I mean, I hope in the future. And again, I want multiple cats. I think that's the problem also, you know? I don't have room really for a cat in here anyway. But even if I did it, I want like five cats. Like I can't have five cats, but in my heart, that's what I want.
Sarah Enni: I love it. I love it. I admire it. Well I wanted to wrap up our conversation with talking about The Voting Booth a little bit. And also the project you just announced, which is so exciting. You brought up The Voting Booth and since that's your most recent project, do you mind just giving us the quick pitch for that story?
Brandy Colbert: Yeah. So The Voting Booth is about two first-time teen voters. So Marva who wakes up on election day at like five or 6:00 AM and is just like, "I've literally been waiting for this my entire life." She's been canvassing and phone banking, she's been doing everything. And then Duke is the other person. So it's dual points of view and Duke comes from a politically minded family, but he's mostly voting because of that. He knows it's his duty and also sort of to honor his late activist brother.
And so they meet at the polling place and Marva casts her very first vote and she's so excited and she's getting ready to go to school. And then she sees Duke getting turned away because of registration issues. And so she's, I mean, totally takes it upon herself to insert herself into this stranger's life. And is basically like, "Oh, your car died? Okay, cool. I'm gonna drive you to vote." And he's like, "I don't even know you. Um, okay?" So he just lets himself get bossed around by this girl.
The book is set in a day, so they take off on sort of this whirlwind adventure and they try to figure out how to get Duke's vote in. There's so many obstacles that they run into. And also there is a cat in the book, because of course there is, and her name is Eartha Kitty. And she's like an internet famous cat, Marva's internet famous cat, and she goes missing. And so that's another part of the book.
But they just get to know each other throughout the day and learn more about the voting process and some of the unfair things that are happening, like voter suppression, and kind of start to fall for each other in the process as well.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, I love it! I'm interested in, and this kind of ties into the project you're doing next, which we'll talk about in a second. But when you got the idea and the opportunity to write this book that's so explicitly about voting and is so present day and of the moment, and then you get a chance to talk to teens about really complicated structural issues like hindrances to voting, which are really important to understand, but also the kind of thing that makes everybody who hears about it for the first time go like, "What? How is that possible?"
How did you think about tackling that and explaining it in a way that's not going to be like your story coming to a screeching halt so you could do a, "the more you know" moment?
Brandy Colbert: Instantly that like comet and star like pass through. Yeah, I know it is really interesting. So, it's funny, my mom reads all my books ahead of time. And every time she reads she's like, "Well, you got more history in there for them." Cause, I don't know, I never want to be didactic. I feel like I need to get that tattooed across my chest because I'm constantly saying that, but I really don't.
There's nothing I dislike more than feeling like I'm being talked down to, or like someone's trying to teach me a lesson that I need to know. And especially teens really understand that they're constantly being talked down to. People don't understand how amazing they are. But I do want to impart some history and some things I didn't know when I was a teenager, but in an appealing way.
So I think that's where the romance comes into the book and people are calling it a romcom, which is shocking to me. It is a little bit different from anything I've ever written but it was really fun to write. So I think that says a lot, because you are writing this book about voting and it feels like it's gonna be really stodgy and about the logistics of them getting from place to place.
They spend, essentially, most of the book in a car trying to get to the correct polling place and get this vote in. But it was really fun. I got to add in humor. I got to add in things that I think I would have really found valuable as a teen.Even someone pointed out who had read it, they were like, "I've never seen a book that tells you all the steps that it takes to vote." And I was like, "Oh yeah." Cause that was interesting for me.
Some people have the privilege of going with their parents or their guardians to vote when they're younger, but some don't. And so they might not know what it looks like. So I just tried to approach it through the fresh eyes of a teenager, which I'm trying to do with all of my work.
But just how that would be sort of exciting. Because, yes, you're doing your civic duty and it's a responsibility, but it's still something new. And it's like, "Oh, this is the first time you've ever been able to actually submit a vote, and know that your vote, your opinion, is going somewhere." So I think that freshness of YA was really helpful in a story like this, for writing for teens.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. I love that. And the science around it shows that people are more likely to vote if they've visualized it. So what better way to visualize it than to have a whole story and be there with your characters and be like, "Now when I think about voting, I have some frame of reference." You know?
Brandy Colbert: Yeah. Hopefully it makes it a little less scary too, cause I'm still a little nervous. I don't know about you, but when I go to vote, I'm like, "Ah!" I just get nervous even though I've done it several times over the last 20 years. It just makes me anxious.
Sarah Enni: And I looked at the sheet and was like, "Am I reading it right? Am I filling in the right bubble?" I'm so nervous about that.
Brandy Colbert: Every time, every time.
Sarah Enni: Like, "Ah! Once you do it, you can't take it back!" So that kind of leads us to the project you just announced. What can you tell us about this?
Brandy Colbert: Yes. I'm still writing it. But it is a nonfiction book for younger readers. We haven't quite figured out, because again I'm still writing it, if it's going to be like crossover middle-grade, YA or just YA. But it's about the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. So we are coming up on the hundredth anniversary of that next year, but I feel like so many people, myself included, knew nothing about it until the last five to 10 years.
It's really something that Oklahoma and the city of Tulsa tried to hide. There are residents there, who grew up there, didn't even know about it until recently. It's a really harrowing subject matter. The research is really not... it's fun from a research perspective, as a fellow journalist, you understand that when you come up on new information and find research that's going to help fill out your work. But gosh, it's really devastating.
For anyone who doesn't know it's about this, they called it Black Wall Street, this successful district called the Greenwood District in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And in 1921 after alleged rape accusations against a young Black man, the white community crossed the train tracks and went over to this district and essentially set fire to it.
There were like, I don't know you if you would call them bombs, but some sort of like bullets, weapons, coming down from airplanes. This community, who did nothing wrong, were completely driven out. Many, many people killed, displaced from their homes, their businesses.
So it was really devastating. And it wasn't talked about very much and it was kind of hidden. But in recent years, people have been trying to talk more about it and there are a few books about it. And there's even a YA novel coming out next year. I'm horrible with titles. I don't remember what it's called, but it's by Randi Pink. And so that will be a historical novel. But I'm super excited to get to write a nonfiction version of it.
I was the kid who thought I hated history class because essentially it was the way it was taught to me. First of all, the subjects that were taught were very white centered, really didn't focus on any kind of Black history except for the month of February. And even then, you know, it was just the same people, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, and not even telling the fullness of their stories, really sanitized versions.
So once I got older and I started doing my own research and educating myself, especially on Black Americans in history, I realized there's just so much information out there that myself and other Americans were never taught. So I feel really lucky and excited to get to tell a version of this story and hopefully educate more people and educate kids so they'll know about it growing up.
Sarah Enni: And I'm so excited for you to get to do that and to flex the nonfiction journalism muscle, which we're both always trying to incorporate in some way, shape, or form. How are you thinking about, you know, this is related to the question I just had about voting and getting into logistics, when you know that your audience is teenagers. How is that impacting how you're thinking about telling the story?
I just read Jason Reynolds Stamped, where he took the original Ibram Kendi book and, they call it remixed for YA (Listen to his First Draft interview here). And I thought he did that so wonderfully. And so then when you announced this, I was like, "Oh, I wonder how Brandy's thinking about positioning this historical moment?" And a really devastating, complicated, sad historical moment. How are you making it engaging and something that's of interest and all those challenges that come with writing for teens?
Brandy Colbert: Yeah. And the Stamped remix is so good cause I've read, I won't pretend I've read all of Stamped from the beginning, the original source, because I got like 300 pages in and then I just had to stop and I'm like, "Oh, who does that?" Cause now I have to start over and it's like 700 pages. But it was so good and so engaging. And yeah, I really liked that Jason put his mark on it and made it really conversational for younger readers.
I don't necessarily have that approach, but I do want it to be interesting. I'm currently reading The Warmth of Other Suns by Isabel Wilkerson. I'm like 10 years late to that, but I have been hearing about it literally since it came out. It's the story of The Great Migration, for anyone who doesn't know that, of Black Americans in the early to mid-1900's. Millions of Black people left the South and went to the North and the West and the East Coast to just have better lives.
And so that book is a true masterpiece of nonfiction. I've never read anything like it. The way it's done, the narrative structure, is just, you know, she follows three people who were part of The Great Migration and didn't know each other, but it feels almost like fiction. And so, I don't know if I'll be able to pull off anything like that, but I really do want to make it super accessible to young readers. I want them to be interested and not just feel like I'm throwing facts at them. I want to be able to tie it together with some things from today to the past, because the past always informs the present.
So yeah, I'm just really hopeful that I can make it as engaging as possible with not only the style of writing, but the structure of it. And popping in some tidbits and I'm learning so much. So I think that's also helpful. It doesn't feel stale in any way. It feels like I'm learning along with the reader as I'm writing it. So that feels really fun and good.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. That's so cool. Well, I'm obsessed with narrative nonfiction. So I was definitely doing a little dance when I read the announcement. So I'm excited. I'm so excited for you that you get to try this new thing. You've written many books now and this is a brand new challenge.
Brandy Colbert: Yeah. And it's really, really scary. Every morning I wake up and I'm like [gasps], "Okay, you've got this is big responsibility." But I feel so fortunate to be the person to get to do this. I grew up three hours away from Tulsa and went there quite a bit as a kid. And it always felt like a safer space in the Midwest because the Midwest is essentially just a few larger cities in each state and then a bunch of rural areas. And so it didn't always feel safe to grow up there, even in my own hometown it didn't always feel safe.
But knowing that that was so at odds with the history of that town, I think, is also a really interesting perspective. So it's been a challenge, but really interesting. And I think I'll definitely be a better person for it after having worked on this book.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Well, being familiar with Tulsa also can't not help the book, I think. Being a Midwesterner and having a sense of the place is helpful in every writing endeavor, but especially in talking about this and being able to contextualize it, that's so important. So, we'll just have to talk about that when it comes out in fall 2021.
Brandy Colbert: Yes, please. I would love that.
Sarah Enni: That's so exciting. I don't have any more questions. I could talk to you all day, but we gotta wrap it up. But is there anything else that you have going on that people should know about?
Brandy Colbert: Nothing that I can say on record, I will tell you as soon as we stop recording.
Sarah Enni: Oh good!
Brandy Colbert: So there's your tease. But yeah, I have several more things in the works. So you will see more from me, hopefully in each space that I've been writing in.
Sarah Enni: Excellent. And people should check out The Voting Booth. I can't think of a better book to put in the hands of teens, especially right now, we're coming up on a hundred days to election day. Get out there, read about voting talk about voting, live voting. Let's do it.
Brandy Colbert: Yes, please.
Sarah Enni: Thank you so much for joining me today.
Brandy Colbert: Of course. Thank you for having me. This was so fun. And thanks to everyone who submitted questions also.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Thank you guys!
Thank you so much to Brandy. Follow her on Twitter and Instagram @BrandyColbert and follow me on both @Sarah Enni (Twitter and Instagram), and the show @FirstDraftPod (Twitter and Instagram). If you're an aspiring writer with questions about the business or a seasoned vet with questions about the business, like most of us, then be sure you're listening to the Track Changes podcast series that has been appearing in your First Draft feed the last few months.
The most recent episode was a bonus episode, looking at inflection points where systemic inequality is perpetuated in publishing. And how bad has it gotten and what can we do? You can find all those episodes in a row and listen to them. You can binge them @FirstDraftPod.com/TrackChanges.
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Hayley Hershman produces First Draft and today's episode was produced and sound designed by Callie Wright. The theme music is by Dan Bailey and the logo was designed by Collin Keith. Thanks also to transcriptionist-at- large Julie Anderson. And, as ever, to you Logan stanners, I'm sorry. Thanks for listening.
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