First Draft Episode #252: Candace Bushnell
MAY 12, 2020
LISTEN TO THE EPISODE
Candace Bushnell, #1 New York Times bestselling author of Sex and the City, Lipstick Jungle, and The Carrie Diaries talks about her newest book, Rules For Being a Girl, which she co-wrote with New York Times bestselling author Katie Cotugno.
Sarah Enni: First Draft is brought to you by HIGHLAND 2 a writing software created by John August screenwriter and cohost of the Scriptnotes podcast. Also a guest on this very podcast. His episode is fantastic. And after talking to John and listening to hundreds of episodes of Scriptnotes, I heard him talk about developing this writing software and I decided to give it a try.
I just finished writing a first draft entirely in HIGHLAND 2 and I'm obsessed with it. And here's why I love HIGHLAND. It's so simple, but it's still really powerful. There's one navigation sidebar. And within that sidebar you have tons of different tools at your disposal. You can drag bits of text in there that you might want to come back to later. Or you can monitor your stats like word count and page count, or new words and new page count.
The main screen where you write is this simple, endless scroll of plain text. But with just a few keystrokes, you can add notes to yourself in-line without them showing up in the final, automatically formatted, version of your book. And you can export into many formats, including as a Word doc. HIGHLAND 2 is clean, beautiful and organized, which is to say it didn't distract me, it just let me get in there and focus and write.
I highly encourage you to go check it out. You can find it @highland2.app. That's HIGHLAND and the number two dot app. Or you can also find the link in this episode's show notes. And if you do try HIGHLAND and enjoy it, let me know, I'm so interested. I was tracking my progress on my first draft in the Instagram story feed, you can go in there and see my struggle, but HIGHLAND was the number one thing that people asked me. Everyone wanted to know what the software was that I was using, and this is it. So go check it out.
Sarah Enni: Welcome to First Draft with me, Sarah Enni. This week I'm talking to Candace Bushnell, number one New York Times bestselling author of Sex in the City, Lipstick Jungle. And The Carrie Diaries. She talks about her newest book, Rules For Being a Girl, which she co-wrote with fellow New York Times bestselling author Katie Cotugno.
I loved what Candace had to say about the ways that fiction can tell the truth more effectively than journalism, how leaving New York City actually helped her reclaim her creative voice later in life, and what she finds so energizing in writing about and for young women. Everything we talk about in today's episode can be found in the show notes.
A reminder, First Draft participates in affiliate programs, specifically, we're an affiliate of bookshop.org. So that means that shopping through the links on FirstDraftPod.com helps to support the show at no additional cost to you and it supports independent bookstores too.
If you'd like to donate to First Draft either on a one-time or monthly basis, you can go to paypal.me/firstdraftpod.
You may have noticed something new and different in your feed over the last few weeks. I've launched Track Changes, a podcast spinoff series of First Draft that's getting into everything you don't know you don't know about book publishing. The first few episodes are already out and the next full episode comes out May 7th.
It's all about how you and your agent sell a book. And just one episode back in this feed you can find a bonus episode where we hear from industry experts about what is happening in publishing as a result of coronavirus.
In researching for Track Changes, I learned so much more than I could fit into just one podcast series. So I've also launched the Track Changes newsletter, a subscription newsletter that for $5 a month will bring you further insights into how books get made and it comes out every Thursday.
Both projects aim to provide transparency and give writers the information they need to think about their art as their career. You can sign up for a 30 day free trial of the newsletter to check it out, and learn more about both Track Changes projects at FirstDraftPod.com/TrackChanges.
Okay, now please sit back, relax, and enjoy my conversation with Candace Bushnell.
Sarah Enni: Hi Candace, how are you this morning?
Candace Bushnell: I'm doing great.
Sarah Enni: Oh good. Well, I'm so excited to chat with you, we're gonna dive right in. For my interviews, I like to start at the very beginning. So we're gonna go all the way back to where were you born and raised?
Candace Bushnell: I was born in Glastonbury. Well, I was actually born in technically in Middletown, Connecticut, next to this town of Glastonbury, Connecticut. Where I was raised and where I lived for the first seventeen years of my life. And I always knew I would get out of there, move to New York, and be a novelist.
Sarah Enni: Amazing. So I read that you had decided from a young age that you wanted to be a writer, that that was kind of your ambition. But I want to know how was reading and writing a part of your life, of childhood for you?
Candace Bushnell: I learned to read when I was really young, like before I was four. I just remember people were doing something and I just so wanted to do it. I had this personality where, I mean, I had a FOMO personality from an early age and people were reading and I was FOMO about reading and what was it? And how were they getting all this knowledge?
So I begged my parents to teach me how to read and my father said, and I do kind of remember this, and my father said he came home from work one day and like I could read.
Sarah Enni: Wow!
Candace Bushnell: You know, part of this, what you choose to do probably has something to do with how your brain works. If you're going to be a novelist, you're gonna read all the time. So that action should be something that feels comfortable for your brain. If you feel like, "Oh God, reading makes me uncomfortable." Being a writer is not for you.
It's also something where it's like playing an instrument. People who play instruments, it's like they hear an instrument and they're like, "Oh, that's so inspiring to me. I have to do that." And that's what writing was like. I think it just felt really good to read. So I felt like I wanted to do that. Something that I enjoyed so much. I thought, "This is an amazing thing to do." So that kind of works probably like on a cellular level.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, I think that makes total sense to me. And I want to ask, I understand that you moved to New York, I think it was in 1978. And I read that you signed a contract to write a children's book pretty quick, but it never was published.
Candace Bushnell: I did, yes. I loved like Roald Dahl, so I really wanted to be a Roald Dahl. So I wrote this children's book about this girl and her grandma and her dog Nuisance. And I sent it out and this woman called me and she was the editor in chief of the Simon and Schuster children's book publishing division. So she said, "Well, I loved your story. Will you come in for a meeting?"
And I was like, "Yes." I think I was maybe nineteen or twenty, and I really was like, "I'm making it! It's all worked out. I'm just gonna write fiction. I moved to New York and I'm gonna write fiction! And isn't this how it's supposed to be?" And she was tiny and she had black hair and she was like, "Well, you definitely should be a children's book writer." And I was like, "Hello?!"
And then she said, "Alight, well we're not going to publish this book." I'm like, "Why the fuck not lady?" But she said, "But we have this book series. Why don't you try writing one of these stories?" So I was like, "Sure." And they would pay a thousand dollars so I was like, "Double sure. Yes." So I did it. Then they sent me a check and they were like, "Thank you so much, but we're not gonna do the series anymore." So it didn't get published.
I guess they'd done one or two and then they had assigned another one, and the first two didn't work, obviously, so they're not gonna publish anymore. And that's the reality of publishing it.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, and I just thought it was so funny to have this sort of quick brush with fiction writing at a young age. And then I'd love for you to kind of talk through how you came back to writing. I mean, your eventual book was essays. So you went on to do a lot of different kinds of writing.
Candace Bushnell: I only thought I was ever gonna write fiction and I really felt like, "I'm gonna be like the female Kurt Vonnegut." Cause I grew up on all of those really inventive seventies novels. So that is really what I thought. But you can only be that if you come from the right background, and you have money, and you went to the right university.
The reality is that a lot of being a fiction writer, and being a young fiction writer, is you went to the right school, you had a path to do it. So this person's gonna pay attention to you, you have that person. Now people go to school for it so people will pay attention to them that way. And I did quote "steady" writing in college. But I was writing fiction all the time, and I was really just waiting like, "When am I gonna be able to switch over to only writing novels?"
And the reality is from the beginning, so many people said to me, "This should be published, but nobody's ever gonna publish it because it's too dark."
Sarah Enni: Oh, interesting.
Candace Bushnell: If you go on Amazon and you see like 4 Blondes, I think it has like two-and-a-half stars, and it's because there's a certain truthfulness to the writing that is not commercial. That's really being an artist. And so that's how I've always felt.
People come at my work from the opposite direction. They come at my work from, "Oh, your name was on a TV show." And, "Oh, before that you were a journalist." They don't understand that the stuff that I write that it's... the struggle of my whole career has been blending my real voice with a society that will accept this.
It's kind of a truth telling and society will only accept the truth under certain conditions. And if you are a truth teller, you have to find that balance. That's really what it's about. And it's about writing for the public as opposed to just doing it for yourself.
So I was writing fiction all the time. And I was really writing stuff that was precursors to Sex in the City. That was all I was doing and it was fiction and nobody wanted to publish it cause it was too, again, dark.
Sarah Enni: Well, I want to talk about that in the context of the column, Sex in the City, that you were writing for the New York Observer. I think that started, oh gosh, what year did that start?
Candace Bushnell: It started in 1994.
Sarah Enni: Okay. Because I think what's interesting, a lot of people are familiar with the HBO show based on that column. But the column itself, I mean, I'd love for you to describe what you were talking about during those two years cause it is a lot darker than people might expect based on the TV show.
Candace Bushnell: Yes. So I mean the column was, well first of all, I wanted to have my own column for a long time. So the column was work that I had been doing all through my twenties. And because I wanted to write fiction, but I couldn't make a living at it, and I did not have parents that were gonna pay or whatever. And I had to make a living as a writer.
So I wrote for women's magazines. And women's magazines at that time were really all about [sighs] I mean, there was the clothes and the shoes, but the thread underneath it was really feminism. And this new kind of woman in the eighties who was gonna have it all, but was a huge cohort of women who, for the first time, were working outside of the home. This is always a new thing because the last time women worked outside the home, they went back to the home.
But these women weren't going home. They were having careers. So there's really a lot to write about in terms of society. This is a big change in society and it changes our mating and dating rituals, which change every time new technology comes along. So I was writing about that. And I remember once, I said to a couple of people, "Hey, this should be a novel."
And at that time, books about New York were really not popular. Also, no one was interested in single women. No one was interested in women. No one was interested in women's voices at all. So women's magazines were pretty much the only outlet. Because I wanted to write fiction, I was like, "If you're a writer, you always gotta be practicing, practicing, practicing."
So I wrote all these stories for them that were like journalism, but were really about my friends and the situations that they were in. There was a certain style to these stories. And then I wanted my own column that was going to be fiction, like these stories, so I went around town and I told people I wanted to get my own column. And then I did get my own column in Hamptons Magazine. And it was all about like these crazy characters.
It was probably very unstructured because I didn't have an editor, but it was published every week in Hamptons Magazine. And everybody in the Hamptons would read it, and talk about it, and be scandalized by it. And so I did that for a couple of years. And then there was this one editor, James Truman, had come on the scene at Details Magazine (a profile of Truman from The New York Times in 1999).
I had met this guy, John Homans, whatever, you meet all these people. And he was working at Details and I said to him, "John, listen, I want you to take this Hamptons Magazine column, these columns, and I want you to give them to James Truman. And I want him to give me my own column. Because this is what I should be doing." And he finally confessed to me, last year, that he never did give the columns to James Truman. And if he had, James Truman would have Sex in the City, not the New York Observer.
Sarah Enni: Wow!
Candace Bushnell: So anyway, I was working for the Observer. And one day the editor asked if I wanted to have my own column. And I said, "Yes." And I knew exactly what it should be because I'd already been doing it for years before. And of course, again, it was in a newspaper.
So there's a pretense of the social anthropology, you know? So again, it was really an excuse for me to write fiction. And I mean, it was my original blend of journalism and fiction, because that was how I could write fiction and get paid. So it was really my trip to get around the system.
Sarah Enni: I mean, I love that.
Candace Bushnell: And I haven't read Sex in the City for a while. But now when I look at it, I realize as time goes on, it sort of drops the idea of the categories and it is a novel. And in fact, when I was writing it, Joan Didion (essayist and author of Slouching Toward Bethlehem, The White Album, and The Year of Magical Thinking) was a fan and she came up to me and she said, "You know that you're really writing a novel here." And I was like, "Yes, yes, thank you Joan! You're the only person on the planet who could even understand that!"
And so really, for me, I used the column to be able to financially write fiction all the time. Because I've done the celebrity interviews. It's like, "No, I'm gonna cut my wrists." Being a journalist, it's a young person's business, you know what I'm saying? It's rough. And I only ever wanted to write fiction. So then at the end of the column, which did not end up in the book, are really the beginnings of the stories from 4 Blondes. So I use the last six months of the column, it was all about the Deeks and Janie Wilcox. And so I started those two stories in the New York Observer and then that became my second book 4 Blondes.
Sarah Enni: Well, I want to ask about that. So after Sex in the City the book came out, you then went on to publish several novels in the early two thousands: 4 Blondes, Trading Up, Lipstick Jungle. What was that phase of writing like? And what were you able to get at with these stories about women coming of age and having relationships in New York?
Candace Bushnell: You know, I think 4 Blondes was... I think all of these books reflect maybe a particular experience of women at a certain time through like my fictional lense. 4 Blondes, to me, was really about the lie of empowerment and how the reality for a lot of women is that some kind of sex is still really your best option to make money. Or a transactional relationship with a man is still needed, and your best option, to make money.
So Janie, that's all she is about. She looks good but she hasn't developed anything else. So she's kind of fucked. And she's also like a borderline personality because that's what being beautiful in society does to women's brains. It rewards you so much for a certain kind of behavior that it wears down, in a sense, it wears down your soul.
And then there's another character that's very judgmental towards other women, but says she's a feminist. But she's really judgmental and she's very hypocritical and doesn't really like other women. And again, although she has a job, she really is partly who she is because of her husband. So all these things are really about the intersection of being a woman with money, power, and survival. So it's like, "What, as a woman, do you have to do to keep a roof over your head?"
And then the third story is about a woman who's a princess and she's going crazy. She is crazy! Because society holds up these women to us like, "Oh, you just want to be a princess." But that princess is a princess because she's a borderline personality and is just really, really often a huge mess. And that story is also about what does fame do to you? Which is another theme that, for whatever reason, I'm really interested in. Is what does fame do to the psyche? Who wants it? Why do we need it? It's part of survival. It's that kind of stuff.
Sarah Enni: Right, right. I mean, and then by this time you were also sort of tied up in Hollywood. I mean, you had first-hand knowledge of what kinds of people were achieving fame and what it did to them.
Candace Bushnell: Yes. Well, part of my mission as a writer is, you gotta see shit! I'm gonna tell you that's one of the problems with [pauses] I read a lot of books and it's like, "Okay, it's about someone. They're a professor, they're in a small town." It's like, "That's because that's where you live!" And you gotta get out there and see and experience as much as you can.
And that was one of the great things about being a journalist was that it gave me access to see a lot of stuff. And I am interested in rich people and frankly the rest of the people in this country should be interested in rich people as well. How they make their money, how they get ahead and all that kind of stuff. Because you don't pay attention to rich people... and here we have a huge wealth gap.
Sarah Enni: I mean, I'm so interested in that, and you talking about though you never thought about yourself as a journalist, you are talking about how that kind of living in the world, observing, analyzing the world that you live in, it leads to more truth in fiction, which is such an interesting kind of paradox.
Candace Bushnell: Is it a paradox? Oh, well yes in that way. But the thing about fiction though, fiction does something that journalism can't really do. Journalism doesn't really tell the truth. It has facts, and the facts are the facts. But the interpretation of the facts is what it's all about. And having words as a journalist, I can promise you that if you do not think that things are biased one way or another than I got a bridge to sell you.
I mean, there's a certain truth in fiction. I think there's a certain truth about human beings that fiction, for whatever reason, because it puts it through a prism or something, can be more truthful than journalism. You know what I'm saying?
Sarah Enni: Yes. Yeah. And I agree that's the analysis or, what's the word I want to use? Um, not decompressing, but trying to come to terms with what it means to be a human in the world today. Right? It's sort of coming up with these characters who we can all relate to like you said.
Candace Bushnell: Yeah or not. I don't write my characters because I want people to relate to them. That's what they do in TV. Okay. So that's what TV is all about. But that's not what fiction is about. So I actually don't ever think, "Can I write a character that people are gonna relate to?" I never ever think that. I think, "Can I write a character where I can feel this character in me? Where I can feel this character in my essence." I have to feel the truth of this character. Whether people relate or not is in a way irrelevant.
You know, people don't have to walk around in the real world like, "Everyone must relate to me." It's not a realistic stance unless you're an actor and you're doing it because you're insane. So no, I mean, to me the character has to be real and then I think that people can grasp onto that. You know what I'm saying?
Sarah Enni: Yeah, yeah, that definitely makes sense to me. I want to ask about The Carrie Diaries was then in 2010. And I write young adult fiction. I know Katie from that world of writing for young adults and teens. So I'm just interested in what drew you to telling a story about a young woman's perspective.
Candace Bushnell: One part of it is because I've wanted to be a writer for so long that I felt like I was writing when I was in high school. Like I had a narrative going in my head. I wish I could totally remember it. But I felt like high school was something that should be written about all the time, but I didn't know how to get into that world. I mean, I don't know how I would have gotten into that world, really, without The Carrie Diaries because I wasn't in that world.
And people don't just say, "Hey, you've never written YA before. Here we're gonna..." I mean, it just doesn't work like that. But my agent said, "You know, maybe The Carrie Diaries could be YA." And I was like, "Yes!" And a lot of it really is my life. And then Summer and the City, a lot of it is my life too, but not quite as wild.
I had such a good time writing these books and the YA audience is super great. It's just a really, I don't know, like intelligent. I mean it feels like it's warm. It just seems like it's a great group. So I did those two books and they worked out. And then I had a contract and I was writing some other stuff and you know, time passed. And then I was talking to Alessandra, and I'd always read Katie's books, which I loved, cause we have the same editor. And actually, that's how this book ended up coming about.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. Well I do want to get to that, but really I do want to just really quick take a second to talk about, Is There Still Sex in the City? In particular I want to ask about the period of time that you spent not in New York, because I read interviews with you where you talked about that time when you were off in the country. And it sounds like it was a real creative rejuvenation for you. And I just wanted to ask about that time and about reclaiming your voice in a new way.
Candace Bushnell: Yes. I mean, the reality was that I was just totally burned out. And the other thing is, you can get into this thing where you've got to write a book every two years, which is, they want you to do that. But they also kind of want the same kind of book. And then they also want there to be a happy ending. And, and I just wasn't feeling it.
But I also had this publisher and they said, "Go and write whatever you want." So I did. And I wrote stuff that was dark [laughs], like the stuff that I was writing when I was younger. Although this is much more polished, much better. But you know what? The reality is, there's a part of it that is like playing an instrument, you know, it's a terrible thing to do.
But I felt like, "Okay." I just went, I wrote whatever I wanted, and it went in all kinds of different directions. I got caught up in some idea, like I wanted the novel to be transformative in some way. And I you know what? I don't get paid to do that. That's kind of what happened. Then you're in trouble and everyone's mad at you.
Sarah Enni: Are you saying that you were writing things that you did not end up publishing?
Candace Bushnell: Oh yeah. I have to say, with every book I've written, I've written probably fifty or a hundred pages of a book that I know it's probably never gonna get published.
Sarah Enni: How do you feel about that? And how do you feel about having fifty to one hundred pages? I mean, is it fun to do that on the side and satisfying in some way? Or is it frustrating?
Candace Bushnell: You know, it's what I do every day. I mean sometimes it is frustrating cause it's like, "Ahhh! Everybody should love this!" But it's just the way it is. It's like part of being a writer is you just gotta put in time. And some of the time when you're writing, you're not gonna use it.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, and you kind of have to be at peace with it. I mean, I don't think there's any wasted writing. You're learning something with all these ideas.
Candace Bushnell: Exactly.
Sarah Enni: I want to ask about, I mean, part of the reason why I'm so interested in your time away from New York is, like you said, your fiction is so vibrant because of all the many lives you've lived, and the people around you. But I'm interested in what about solitude? I heard a quote, something like, "You needed to hear your own voice for a while."
Candace Bushnell: Oh yes [pauses]. Yes. I realized that I had been hearing everybody else's voice for so long that my own voice was being drowned out. I had other friends who had the same experience. I felt like my pilot light went out, you know? Or it just went like really, really low.
I just felt like I had so many voices in my head that I couldn't hear my own voice and then going away... yes. And then going out of the city, it did help. And it does give you, I don't know, I guess part of being a writer is you gotta spend a lot of time alone.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, and I can definitely relate to it, I think, is why I was so kind of drawn to that. Just needing some time away.
Candace Bushnell: It was also the thing that, I mean, I don't know if you said this when you were a kid, but I always used to say this to myself when I was a kid. Like, "And if things don't work out, if I don't make any money as a writer, I'll still be a writer. I'll just go and live in a cabin in the woods and I will write!" And I really felt that way.
And so I guess for me, there was always a romance to that idea of just spending time by myself and just working. And you know what? I have to say I really was pretty happy.
Sarah Enni: [Chuckles] Yeah?
Candace Bushnell: I just wasn't worried like, "What do other people think of you?" It doesn't matter! They don't see you. They're probably not even thinking about you. But it was a good thing to do.
Sarah Enni: Well, it feels like you have to go through different phases and kind of maybe recharge. I'd love to hear what led to you deciding to move back into the city?
Candace Bushnell: Well, first of all, I always had an apartment in the city. So I just kinda changed apartments and changed my real estate. But I really was going out to Sag Harbor because like in the book, Is There Still Sex in the City? I had my two, single, childless, child-free friends, you know, like me. So they lived here, so I was like, "Ah, these are my best friends. I'm just gonna go and try to live there."
So I came out here and that led to writing Is There Still Sex in the City? And then, I don't know, then I just started going back into the city more and more and just having more meetings and seeing more people.
And honestly, I live in Sag Harbor. It's a similar kind of vibe. But also the other thing is, I've just lived in New York for so long. Really, since I was nineteen. And I never left the city. I mean, I kind of left the city for three or four years. I think it's a place where I psychically feel like I belong, I suppose. You know what I'm saying?
Sarah Enni: Yeah.
Candace Bushnell: I've just been there for so long. I've lived there for so long and even my apartment, I bought my apartment because it's a great place to die.
Sarah Enni: [Laughs]
Candace Bushnell: Now listen, it is really small. It's in a great location, in the seventies, where the old people live between Fifth and Madison. And it's tiny. It’s the same building where Dorothy Parker lived.
Sarah Enni: There you go. That's pretty great.
Candace Bushnell: She died there too. But you know what? That's okay. If I die in the same building as Dorothy Parker, it's like, “It's not that bad!”
Sarah Enni: That's pretty good. Well let's talk about, Rules for Being a Girl. You kind of had just started to tell us how this came about. Do you mind giving us the quick pitch for what Rules is about?
Candace Bushnell: It's about a girl who takes control of her life and discovers feminism after she has an encounter with a predatory teacher. What I love about this book, and I mean, I have to say working with Katie was great, and Katie is fantastic. I mean this book is really great because of Katie.
But what I think is so good about it is that it shows exactly the steps that happen in these kinds of situations. I mean, it's really in terms of like social anthropology. And I think that's something that novels can do really well is really show human behavior. And this really shows very typical kind of behavior. You know, the difference being Marin speaks up and goes with the consequences, but the good thing is she finds herself.
Sarah Enni: Right, right. I'm so glad that you enjoyed YA enough to want to come back and tell stories about young women. I guess when I read the book, I was thinking that it was kind of wonderful to have an example. To have women see an experience that they might, unfortunately, have to go through reflected in a book so that they might have some context for how to feel, or what to think about if something like that does happen to them.
Candace Bushnell: Exactly. I mean it's definitely inspired by the #MeToo movement and the fact that women are now talking about these kinds of things. Also that it's okay to be a feminist now, you know? Fifteen years ago people were like, "Nah, no feminists." And we're speaking up about these things.
And we see this all out in the press with like the Harvey Weinstein's. But the reality is that this, it's exactly as it says in the book, it starts early. And it's exactly what you said. It's sort of like, people should read this because you can identify with everything that's happening.
Sarah Enni: Yeah. I mean, it brought me back to, unfortunately, at my high school. Experiences that were similar. And some kind of predatory behavior that, at that time, was this like... what's the word for that? Like it was just sort of gossip. It was known gossip. But we never felt like anything was ever gonna happen to these teachers. So it wasn't even worth talking about. It was a different time.
Candace Bushnell: Absolutely. I mean, I'm kind of surprised to hear that, but nothing like this happened to me when I was in high school, but when I went to college, it happened a lot. I mean, a lot. There was like a writing teacher that wants to kiss and, "Don't worry, I'm gonna give you a good grade anyway." It's like, "Really?"
Sarah Enni: So demeaning.
Candace Bushnell: It's so demeaning. But that's what they do! It's part of this power situation. They make you feel equal because they're interested. But then, "Let me once again remind you that you're a woman, you know, forget it. It's really only about this." So that's a message that women get in one form or another, again and again.
Sarah Enni: Right. And something about seeing it, you know, writing a novel about it isn't gonna fix anything, but it does I think offer comfort and some sense of solidarity or the idea that one real woman's actual story is not happening in a vacuum, you know?
Candace Bushnell: Exactly.
Sarah Enni: Well I really responded to it and I really enjoyed it. I do want to ask about the experience of co-writing for the first time. You mentioned that you really admire Katie and I love Katie too, she's fantastic and so talented. But what was it like to work with someone in bringing a story to life?
Candace Bushnell: Well, it's more like working on a script. That's something that you do all the time on TV shows. So the key is that, we worked with our editor Alessandra she kept it all moving. But you know, it goes back and forth. We met a couple of times, we did an outline, you send the file back and forth, and people would make little notes or comments. And then one person writes this bit, the other person writes that, and then the editor coordinates it all.
Sarah Enni: I love it. Yeah!
Candace Bushnell: It was great with Katie because as soon as we met, we read all the same articles.
Sarah Enni: I have had that lunch. It's very satisfying. I want to ask just a little bit about writing for TV and movies because you've had some experience with that. Many of your books became TV shows. Would you ever think about writing a pilot or a feature or is that kind of writing still of interest to you?
Candace Bushnell: I mean, the thing about script writing is that it's very specific. And the reality is that there isn't a lot of crossover between people who write scripts, and people who write fiction and who write novels. And one of the biggest differences is that you're really writing something for an actor to say, which is very different than writing something that a reader is gonna read.
When you write dialogue in a book, I mean, you're really writing it. You have to write it. Whereas in a script it could just be like ,"No." I mean, if you're writing a book, you really don't want to have 'no' just sitting there. It's much, much more structured. And there are many steps to it. Like there's the pitch and then there's the outline of the outline. And then there's the outline. And then there's the story and document. It's like, "Ugh! Enough already!"
But it's not a free form kind of thing. I'm working on this script now with a co-writer and I'm having a really good time working with her, cause there's a certain way to do it. But it's a hard business. It's hard, it's hard. It's hard to get them to accept the script. It's hard to get them to make something. And a lot of it's out of one's control. It's not like, "Oh, I'm just gonna roll up and write this great script and it's gonna be made and it's gonna be something. But I do like the idea of working visually and kind of working in a little bit of a different medium.
Sarah Enni: There's pros and cons to having it all be on your shoulders. Right? Being the god of your own world is very empowering. And then sometimes you're like, "Can I just be in a room with people and think about things a different way?"
Candace Bushnell: Right. Exactly. And I haven't spent a lot of time screenwriting. I mean, I kind of feel like you really have to pick one or the other because you don't want to end up being mediocre at both. It's better to be really, really good at one or really, really good at the other.
Sarah Enni: Yeah, I definitely hear you on that. I live in LA, so the constant temptation is always there, but I’m still plugging away at books at the time.
I want to ask about New York and releasing a book now when we are in a unique position of being at home. And also just what are the challenges to having a book come out now and how are you adapting to it? And what has that experience been like for you?
Candace Bushnell: Well the frustrating thing is, and it's not frustrating compared to anything else. I mean, it's totally fine, you know. It's like priorities. I think it's that talking to the audience, you know, it's the book events really. You know, you go, you read, you talk to the audience. It's the Q&A. It's the people sharing, it's the experience. And this is really a book where it feels like so many people can identify and share their situations.
But on the other hand, I feel like it's a really good book and it's a really solid book. It's great. And three months from now it's still gonna be a really good solid book and I feel like people will find the book and are finding the book.
Sarah Enni: We'll wrap up with advice in just a second, but I'm interested in how you, as a creative person, are spending this time. What are you working on? Are you able to work right now?
Candace Bushnell: Well I am, at first I wasn't. I'm working on my next book and then I'm working on this one woman show.
Sarah Enni: Really?
Candace Bushnell: Mm-hm.
Sarah Enni: Cool!
Candace Bushnell: That'll probably be exactly this podcast. And then I'm working on the script for Is There Still Sex in the City?
Sarah Enni: Oh great. That's what the script is. That's fantastic.
Candace Bushnell: Yep. So that's what I'm doing.
Sarah Enni: Staying busy.
Candace Bushnell: Yes. The reality is that when I'm here in this particular place, I don't go out a lot anyway, so it's not that different except that I have not seen anybody for weeks. And I can't even see you!
Sarah Enni: [Laughs] Last question and then I'll ask advice. Would you ever consider co-writing again?
Candace Bushnell: Oh, definitely. It's great because everybody brings something. They bring a different point of view and it's so interesting to listen to other people's point of view. I mean, I think one of the things that's tricky is that most of the time when you're writing fiction, it's all your ideas. You can't get any ideas from anybody else, you know what I'm saying? So you gotta really stand by that idea. But when you're co-writing, you can look at things a different way and be like, "Oh yes, thank God! Somebody else thought of that."
Sarah Enni: Yeah, I love that. Well this has been such a fun conversation and I'm so glad that you could take the time to chat with me. I wrap up with advice. So I would really like to hear just advice that you have for young writers who are kind of looking to break in now.
Candace Bushnell: Okay. I mean, part of the job of being a writer is you have to keep your ear to the ground a little bit. You need to have a sense of what's going on in the world in a way, you know what I'm saying? And you need to figure out how to breakthrough. That is actually part of the job. And for every single person it's different. That's what's so difficult about it because it's so dependent on what are your strengths? And it's something you as a writer have to figure it out.
But I will say in figuring it out, I mean, I always just got "No, no, no." So I was like, "I'm just gonna figure out a way to go around." I think that's really it. It's like you get the nose. I mean, some people are like, "Oh yeah..." But it's like you just gotta figure out a way to go around, you know?
Sarah Enni: Yeah. I mean the gatekeepers are real, right? Even now. But there's more ways than ever to work around people.
Candace Bushnell: Yes, there are. There are.
Sarah Enni: This was such a great conversation, Candace. I appreciate your time so much and I hope we get to chat again whenever you have a next book come out.
Candace Bushnell: That would be fantastic.
Sarah Enni: Thank you so much to Candace. Follow her on Twitter and Instagram @CandaceBushnell. And follow me @SarahEnni (Twitter and Instagram), and the show @FirstDraftPod (Twitter and Instagram).
This show was brought to you by HIGHLAND 2, the writing software that won't break your brain or the bank. I'm currently using it to revise my current project and that's actually definitely happening and not in any way being procrastinated at all. You can find HIGHLAND 2 @highland2.app.
A quick and easy way you can support First Draft is by subscribing to the show wherever you're listening right now or leave a rating or review on Apple podcasts. Leaving a rating or review there only takes a couple minutes but through a lot of mysterious mumbo jumbo that I don't understand, it really helps the show. It boosts it and puts it in front of new listeners, which is great. I'm gonna read a recent five star review.
This was left by CHM King 37. CHM King 37 says, "I absolutely adore this podcast. I discovered First Draft when searching for interviews with my favorite authors, and what a gem I found. I've always secretly written but never thought of myself as a writer. But after listening to a bunch of these eps, I've been inspired to actually channel all my ideas into a book. I'm having so much fun writing and listening to First Draft. It's been an amazing outlet for me."
That is incredible CHM King. Thank you. Thank you. I never get tired of hearing this. I feel fortunate every single time someone says that listening to the show made them feel like writing. What a joy and I'm so happy you're finding something fun and exciting and creative to do. That just warms my heart and thank you for leaving that review.
Finally, if you have writing or creativity questions that me and an upcoming guests can answer in a mailbag episode, I would love to hear that. You can call and leave your question at First Draft's voicemail at (818) 533-1998. Or you can record yourself asking the question and email that to me at mailbag@firstdraftpod.com.
Hayley Hershman produces First Draft and today's episode was produced and sound designed by Callie Wright. The theme music is by Dan Bailey and the logo was designed by Collin Keith. Thanks also to transcriptionist-at- large, Julie Anderson.
And, as ever, thanks to you pilot light reigniters for listening.
I want to hear from you!
Have a question about writing or creativity for Sarah Enni or her guests to answer? To leave a voicemail, call (818) 533-1998 or send an email to mailbag @ firstdraftpod dot com!
Subscribe To First Draft with Sarah Enni
Every Tuesday, I speak to storytellers like Veronica Roth, author of Divergent; National Ambassador for Young People’s Literature Jason Reynolds; Creator of Sex and the City Candace Bushnell; YouTube empresario and author Hank Green; Actors, comedians and screenwriters Jessica St. Clair and Lennon Parham; author and host of NPR’s Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast Linda Holmes; Bestselling authors and co-hosts of the Call Your Girlfriend podcast, Ann Friedman and Aminatou Sow; Michael Dante DiMartino, co-creator of Avatar: The Last Airbender; John August, screenwriter of Big Fish and co-host of the Sciptnotes podcast; or Rhett Miller, musician and frontman for The Old 97s. Together, we take deep dives on their careers and creative works.
Don’t miss an episode! Subscribe in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Track Changes
If you’re looking for more information on how to get published, or the traditional publishing industry, check out the Track Changes podcast series, and sign up for the Track Changes weekly newsletter.
Support the Show
Love the show? Make a monthly or one-time donation at Paypal.me/FirstDraft.
Rate, Review, and Recommend
Take a moment to rate and review First Draft with Sarah Enni in Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your honest and positive review helps others discover the show -- so thank you!
Is there someone you think would love this podcast as much as you do? Just click the Share button at the bottom of this post!
Thanks again!